sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
Ah, but "necessary evils" are only necessary in human actions, because humans are not all-powerful.
If humans were all powerful medical procedures wouldn't be needed.
And natural laws are indifferent. So if the natural laws come from God then he isn't all-loving, he is indifferent.
If you want to say that God is either not all-powerful or is indifferent to humans then I'd be willing to consider it, but I would challenge how you acquired your knowledge about such a being.
"you are my witnesses says jehovah".. this is going to show you how poor my knowledge of the bible has been.. i thought there was a scripture that says the quoted phrase (at least in nwt).
i could swear that i heard it for years quoted in talks.. i went to find it this morning and found nothing of the sort.
am i an anomaly or do any of you remember this as well?.
That weird split is happening in a bunch of threads, I think Simon is working on it.
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
I got this one cofty. Because an all-powerful AND an all-loving creator wouldn't put innocent people in harm's way.
If he's all powerful that means he can save innocents, if he's all-loving that means he's motivated to save innocents. When motive is combined with ability in that regard, then no innocent people would be getting killed.
But they are getting killed. Which means either God can't save all the innocent people, or he's refusing to do it. Making him either ineffectual, or kind of a jerk.
Though, as I have stated, I believe the most probable situation is simply that no deity exists at all.
these are the books that led to my awakening:.
the art of thinking clearly - rolf dobelli.
how to defend the christian faith: advice from an evolutionist - john w.loftus.
Thanks, I'm going to look at as many of these as I can. It might not have any information new to you, but I have found Lloyd Evan's "Reluctant Apostate" to be very informative book, especially as a resource for helping anyone who doesn't know much about JWs to understand the position people like us are in right now.
my name is collins.
i am from nigeria.
i was born in the year 1997. i was raised by witness parents.
Wow, I can very much relate to this, I got baptized around 10 too, though I didn't get reproved until several years later. (They formed a judiciary committee for a 10/11-year-old? Wow! That is crazy.) I too am in an institution for higher education, disfellowshipped, and being compelled to go to meetings even though I hate them. I hope things work out well for both of us.
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
For me, it basically comes down to probability.
Is it more probable that there is a God out there who cares enough about humanity to specially create us, but not to shield us from harm in our infancy? (Both as a species and as individuals) Or is it more likely that we are the rare result of the natural forces of the Universe?
Is it likely that the supernatural events recorded in the Bible, which have no confirmed modern events to parallel them, actually happened? Or is it more likely that they are simply another set of exaggerated stories that might be based very loosely on real events?
My belief in the supernatural, and by extension God is set at neutral and leans towards skeptical disbelief until such a time as I am given clear and objective evidence to the contrary. The fact that the state of Universe and humanity doesn't reflect what I would logically expect from a loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful creator merely reinforces that position, it is not the entire basis for it.
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
Yes the Bible acknowledges death, predators, and natural disasters, but it does so by invoking victim blaming (sin), and basically saying it is our fault. This, however is inconsistent with a God that claims to be the embodiment of love. Because compassion and forgiveness are pretty important attributes of love, and they are not readily visible in the world around us.
Additonally, if the Bible truly came as a result of being inspired by a benevolent and all knowing being, then it would inevitably be scientifically, and prophetically accurate. So either God didn't inspire the Bible to the degree that it can be used as a guide to determine his will, or God is not all-knowing and is therefore a liar.
when i was a jw, i was taught that i can never succeed in life if i leave the sect.
now that i am no longer a member of the fold, how can i succeed in this only life i have and achieve my dreams?.
You seem to have recognized that a successful life is possible away from the WTBS, and that's a good first step. I firmly believe that the best way to better yourself is through education, formal or informal, just commit yourself to it.
Now depending on your goals, formal education will have obvious advantages. If you want to something in an established company or do something that requires a license. (Doctor, engineer, teacher, etc.) then a formal education is probably necessary. If, however, you want to start something yourself or help to build something new with someone else, the skills are all that really matter.
But that only covers one aspect of success, if you want to find fulfillment then you should build friendships, practice altruism in your community, pursue your hobbies, travel, experience as much as you can.
In short, no you can't vote and remain a Witness. While they don't technically disfellowship (excommunicate) someone for that, they say that by such action one has "disassociated themselves." Which basically amounts to the same thing, perpetual shunning. (Interestingly, this is also how they handle someone who voluntarily receives a blood transfusion.)
sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
God will remains a mystery because we are in a kind of test.
In this time we need free will. Free will needs total privacy. That's why nobody can read our thoughts.
Now in heaven nobody has free will because they saw God directly. At the time you see God there's a transformation and you can't be a human anymore.
There's no free will if you can see God. Like if you have to choose between a marble palace or a piece of chalk.
Jews say that the existence of God in this universe it's like the subtle flavor of wine left in a glass. That's enough for the game of life.
God can be reached through philosophy or/and intuition.
God is not a scientific experiment.
Search your intuition and you will know.
Try to develop your intuition doing some art.
Do you have an objective basis for any of this, or are pulling all of this out of your own... head?
Especially the part about what happens in heaven. Have you been there? Have you spoken to somebody from heaven? Have you read about from a reliable source? What makes your views on heaven any more insightful than a random person on the street?
The problem with basing something on pure intuition is that it can not be verified or examined outside your own head. It cannot possibly be objective, therefore it cannot be rational.
I can also make a logical argument about the following part of your statement.
Now in heaven nobody has free will because they saw God directly. At the time you see God there's a transformation and you can't be a human anymore.
There's no free will if you can see God. Like if you have to choose between a marble palace or a piece of chalk.
This makes no sense at all, even in your own illustration. There may be a reason to choose chalk over marble, for example, if you desire a writing tool, chalk would be the superior choice.
Additionally, why would you ever want to worship a being that will strip you of your free will?
