Posts by Saethydd

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

Saethydd

@ Saerhydd
Even though miracles take place in the physical world the nature of your consciousness is always metaphysical. And you still needs faith to accept reality. Doesn't matter if physical or metaphysical reality. You can't suspend reason and faith in the process of understanding the reality.

True, which means that our reason must be used to temper faith. Reason tells me that each of the "miracles" you brought up have several warning indicators that they are probably fabrications.

1. They happened a long time ago, or in a far-away land, thus removed from the scrutiny of the first world press. (In some cases both) Which means that they are left open to being wildly over-exaggerated. (Note: First world press coverage doesn't necessarily prevent this, but in my opinion, more coverage and thus more skeptical scrutiny helps reveal the truth.)

2. The photographic and video evidence is either unclear or non-existent.

3. First-hand accounts from reliable witnesses and experts are also non-existent.

I'm sure I could go on if applied more thought to this but I think my point is clear. If I accepted these miracles as true based on the provided evidence, then to remain consistent I would also have to accept Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, and Alien Abductions as true. Like miracles, however, I choose to simply view those events with skeptical disbelief until I find some evidence that the events in question couldn't easily be a fabrication or a false perception.

9

Million Euro Scandal in Spain

by Calebs Airplane in

http://cronicaglobal.elespanol.com/vida/testigos-jehova-agujero-empresarial-galicia_69908_102.html.

the jehovah’s witnesses leadership (in northern spain) requested that a local material supplier (owned by rank-and file jws) not divulge that a million euros are unaccounted for.

the cult leadership requested peace from the congregation so as to put pressure on the material company’s owners (who are jws) and thereby avoid any possible litigation.. this case affects a well-known construction supply company with its headquarters in a large northern city.

Saethydd

Saethydd tells about "A very good friend of mine"
Now THAT is what I call solid documentation. Perhaps I should come up with "a very very good friend indeed of mine" and conjure up some FAKE NEWS too ..................

I am vague in deference to my friend's privacy. Frankly, her privacy is more important to me than whether or not some random person online believes me. I know it is true, which is enough for me, and I simply shared what details I could.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

Saethydd

Obviously if you have sensorial proof you can't have faith anymore. Is that hard to understand?
Using an analogy from quantum mechanics:
Faith: wave function .
Sensorial evidence: wave collapse or a particle.
Faith and sensorial evidence is just like velocity and position. You simply can't have both.
You can't accept a premise (axiom) using sensorial evidence. You accept a premise through faith.

You're conflating worship and belief. Even if his existence and power could be confirmed by sensory evidence, faith would still be required. Faith that the God you worship truly wants the best for you, etc.

So I would argue that even if God could be confirmed with sensory evidence one could still show devotion to him (or worship) with "spirit and truth." All the evidence would do is allow us to determine that our worship is being directed at the correct entity, and isn't simply a myth that another human is using to control us. (The more probable conclusion.)

Here's some of them that have convincing evidence:
- Our Lady of Fatima (miracle of the sun)
- Our Lady of Zeitoun

Both of these happened decades ago and could easily have been blown out of proportion.

In the first example, the "vision" was only seen by three people, meaning the others present may simply have been gullible and desperate.

The second example happened in a highly religious area. I looked at the photograph and it isn't clearly a female figure. However, I can see why it might be close enough to give a person who is desperate to have their faith confirmed something at which to grasp.

- Eucharist miracles of Lanciano and Buenos Aires.

This story I would actually accept as providing some actual proof... if it could be confirmed.

However, I have discovered no first-hand accounts confirming these events and certainly no first-hand accounts that corroborate these events. No video interviews with the experts that supposedly ran all these tests, or interviews with the people that supposedly discovered this piece of flesh. Unsurprisingly it also lacks the most important part of confirmation, the ability for multiple independent tests to be performed on the sample. Thus, the most probable conclusion I can draw is that this is nothing more than a sensational tabloid-level story which was invented sell magazines.

2

"Approaching Adulthood"

by Coded Logic in

nailed it!.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciffoxewoww.

.. also, didn't the jws say before the commission that if an adult had sex with a minor who was "approaching adulthood" than it wouldn't be considered sexual child abuse and wouldn't be reported?.

Saethydd

Well, I suppose technically, 10 years old is "approaching adulthood." You know, in the same way the number 3 is "approaching" 1000.

9

Million Euro Scandal in Spain

by Calebs Airplane in

http://cronicaglobal.elespanol.com/vida/testigos-jehova-agujero-empresarial-galicia_69908_102.html.

the jehovah’s witnesses leadership (in northern spain) requested that a local material supplier (owned by rank-and file jws) not divulge that a million euros are unaccounted for.

the cult leadership requested peace from the congregation so as to put pressure on the material company’s owners (who are jws) and thereby avoid any possible litigation.. this case affects a well-known construction supply company with its headquarters in a large northern city.

Saethydd

A very good friend of mine had her JW business partners embezzle from the company they started together and then they tried to frame her for another crime when she tried to get access to the bank account (because that would have revealed their embezzling.) When my friend brought this to the attention of the elders, no disciplinary action was taken against her business partners. And when my friend sought legal justice, she was basically threatened with being disfellowshipped for "disturbing the peace in the congregation." Only one elder that I know of really tried to help my fiend and he is no longer an elder.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

Saethydd

No.
There's no oblivion in Christianity. Only God (Heaven) or the intentional rejection of God (Hell).
The soul is simple in structure and has no parts so it can't be subject to disintegration. The soul is immortal.

Oblivion, Hell, Nihl, that's just semantics and doesn't really make a difference for my argument.

Because His Will is people worshipping Him with spirit and truth (two metaphysical entities).

And how does his giving scientific proof take away from that? Would having scientific evidence for something keep me having "spirit and truth?" How would it do that?

A miracle is the closest of scientific evidence.

Okay, then where are these miracles? I have never seen one that I can even be reasonably sure has come from God.

Yes.
God cannot totally reveal Himself because this act would destroy the free-will of humans. This happens immediately at the hour of death of every human being.

I never said I needed him to "totally" reveal himself, just reveal himself at all, in any way that is not indistinguishable from the natural order of things. Examples of such revelations are in the Bible. A voice from the mountains heard by everyone present, not just a chosen small number of people. A voice that could be readily heard by anyone who asked to hear it.

Not some special one-time event that can only be experienced by a select few or single person. Those sorts of experiences could easily be fabricated.

Why?

Because he is not meeting the needs of such individuals despite it being well within his power to do so.

There's no oblivion. There's a "place" lacking God.

The terminology is irrelevant, the argument still stands. Why does he send us to a "place" lacking God for not believing in him before we die? What purpose does it serve? How does it help anything or anyone? It would take only a fraction of his power to provide universal evidence capable of convincing any reasonable person, but he does not do it.

You must understand that there's a big picture that we don't see entirely.
But any loving parents would permit and let their children to pass through painful medical procedures to achieve a greater good.
If evil is inevitable and God chose to His presence be hidden from a scientific perspective you must be sure that these are necessary conditions to achieve a greater good.

Look, I get where coming from, I don't agree with you, but I understand your reasoning.

However, it doesn't seem to apply to why he isn't doing what needs to be done to assure everyone that he really is up there watching out for us. To apply your own illustration, he is like a parent who puts their child in an ambulance to go get a medical procedure, but instead of going to the hospital to offer support, they stay home and let their child face all the pain alone. That is what it is like for those of us who would like to believe in God but have simply not seen convincing evidence. Evidence which he could easily provide but chooses not to.

The easiest explanation I can find for why such evidence is not readily available is simply that God doesn't exist, at least not in the way you would like him to. Perhaps I am wrong, and it would be remiss of me not to account for that possibility, but until I meet someone who can prove me wrong, I shall remain an agnostic that leans towards skeptical disbelief in the supernatural.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

Saethydd

I'm not trying to offend you, I'm trying to help you.

Anyway I'll keep praying for your soul to realize the blinders of Atheism and Scientism.
And remember you have the chance to change your mind until your last breath.
And always remember that our Mother Mary, the woman clothed with the sun, loves you more than the combined love of all mothers who ever existed and will exist.

I would like to interject something.

You propose that God and Mother Mary both love humans and that God is all-powerful, correct?

You also propose that whether or not those humans believe in God is crucial to whether or not they will spend eternity in heaven, or face the oblivion of non-existence, right?

So, if some humans need some sort of scientifically verifiable proof to believe in God, then why hasn't He provided it?

You've said that God is only bound by His nature, what part of His nature is preventing him from providing scientific evidence for those who need it to believe in Him?

If it isn't outside of His power or against His nature, then that means He is choosing not to provide such evidence in a way that it can be verified as having come from Him. Doesn't that make it seem like He has simply decided that such people are not worth saving? He has, in essence, cursed us to oblivion by not providing something that would only require the slightest bit of effort on His part. I don't know any loving parents who would act in such a way.

22

I need help understanding my moms decision!

by Holzy86 in

first of all i'm not a jahovas witness, my mother is.

i've asked my mother for some help over the weekend for my sons birthday, i understand jw do not celebrate birthdays.. every year i take my son out for a treat day, this year he has asked me if he can bring friends too so i said i only have enough room for one but he has asked for two, so i said i will ask nanny if she will help out to take my other son in her car with my netphew and older sister, but as soon as i mentioned it was for a birthday treat she refused to help me.. i just need to know if jahovahs witnesses will refuse to help family out when asking for help, i feel i've asked and made sure all the people she will be giving a lift to that it is not there birthday.

his birthday has just happened to have fallen on the weekend when we would have been taking him because he is at school monday to friday.

Saethydd

Blah blah blah! Yeah I am stupid so what? Who cares if I'm thick and can't spell?
FYI i did go to the JW meetings and I even went knocking on doors I even listened to why JWS do not celebrate birthdays Christmas etc i was just a kid I was allowed to stop going at 14 because my mom loves me enough not to force religion rubbish on me. I was asking for a lift and all I wanted to know if all JWS would refuse it's all I was asking. Some people are a bit more lenient. I did ask my mom and we got it sorted she's helping me
I actually thought this was a JW forum for actual JW.
I'm not the one telling people how to live there life's or what to do I think you'll find there the annoying religious type who go knocking on doors preaching about a person who does not EXIST!
Please keep on telling me how jehovah hates me and all I do because you know what I don't care I will still sleep like a baby.

Ah, perhaps this has been something of a misunderstanding. The majority of the people on this forum are former Jehovah's Witnesses, many of whom are being shunned by their friends and family, or feel trapped into staying in the religion to avoid being shunned in such a manner.

When they say something like "Jehovah hates you." They merely mean according to the JW doctrines everyone who is not an active JW is "evil" and will thus be destroyed by God. They such things sarcastically because they think the notion ridiculous, not because they actually believe that God hates you.

I hope that helped clear up any confusion.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

Saethydd

So God went through the process of becoming a human when Adam & Eve sinned just so that he could subsequently die to remove the GUILT of Adamic sin but not the CONSEQUENCES of Adamic sin?

Yeah, that's doesn't sound right to me either. It would be like if someone was pardoned for their crimes by a ruler but still had to stay in prison. What's the point of the pardon?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

Saethydd

Your response is fascinating. Hence the question(open to all, of course): Are beliefs merely a function of the intellect? For if they are, then those are understandably subject to changes. Else, they are impervious to external, transitory factors.

I would say it's wise to have beliefs that are subject to change. Beliefs should change as new information and evidence emerge, else one is simply deluding themselves.