Posts by RedhorseWoman

33

What Has Happened To Us?

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

a few months ago during the elders' meeting with the c.o.

i could not help but express myself to him when the subject of meeting attendance came up.

now this is a nice guy as far as c.o.

RedhorseWoman

I definitely concur with all the comments here. I can remember the zeal I had as a teenager.

I was going to pioneer! I would not be worldly and go to college! Additionally, I most likely wouldn't have time to complete a degree before the end.

I was fortunate. I happened to be at the right place at the right time, and I received on-the-job training as a computer programmer when I was in my thirties.

This training allowed me to get a job in companies that provide pension plans and 401K plans. So, I have made a start on retirement, but I lost 15 peak savings years to "kingdom interests".

I'll probably be able to retire, but it won't be until I'm close to 70. At least that's better than looking forward to no retirement at all.

Cutting down the number of meetings definitely makes sense. Most of the material is highly repetitious....it just rotates from one forum to the other. Rather than being a joy, meeting attendance becomes a burden.

I can remember when District Assemblies were 7 to 10 days long. The program lasted from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. I was just a small child, and I can remember the exhaustion very well. All I learned from these marathon sessions was stoicism.

Having meetings pretty much every other day becomes more a means of control than a means to impart knowledge.

6

Frenchy, Please...

by Seven in

jw
friends

don't make me beg!

i am in need of a poetry fix!!.

it's going on a week now since eve's choice.

RedhorseWoman

The poetry is a necessity, that's for sure....and I'm going into withdrawal here.

However, Waiting, your literature reviews are not bad either. LOL

44

"Apostolic succession"?

by Jokemyster in

jw
friends

since the wt organization claims "apostolic succession" who was it that passed the torch of gods spirit to c.t.russel when he founded the.

organization?

what denomination or faith?

RedhorseWoman

Friend....you are good....really good. Doublespeak? Undoubtedly, yes. But you present it well. :)

77

Writing private letters to the Society.

by spectromize in

for anyone who's ever written something of a private nature or asked clarification on certain beliefs have you ever had the unfortunate experience of the elders calling you in the back room or a sheperding call ?.

the reason i bring this out is that newer brothers or sisters don't know that everytime you write the society the society sends a copy of your letter to your local cong.

elders.

RedhorseWoman

Thanks, waiting, for the compliment. My concentration has been off for the last few days because I've been worrying about my kitty. He was pretty sick, and I thought I might lose him. He's recovering now, though. :)

I can imagine how painful your situation must be for you. I've never gone through anything of that magnitude, but I've experienced a little of the treatment you've received.

Somehow it seems that when you've been wronged and are seeking redress for those wrongs, there are many elders who are very adept at making you feel guilty for seeking help.

I could never understand how we were always taught that these men in charge were shepherds and were to care for the flock, when all they seemed to do was to figuratively beat the sheep with their staffs and blame them for their own pain.

I refuse to sit back and meekly accept that "Mother" knows best and somehow whatever is done is in our best interests. If it were, there would not be so many bruised and battered sheep lying bewildered by the wayside.

Things need to change. This organization is dealing with lives and emotions, and yet I sometimes feel that the only value we have is as statistics....hours, literature, studies, and meeting attendance.

Some elders are very caring and try to be good shepherds. Unfortunately, because of the multitude of duties they need to carry out, many of them burn out. Others, usually the ones who last the longest, are the proverbial bean-counters and enforcers. They tote up the hours and make sure everybody toes the mark. Compassion doesn't rate very high with them.

We SHOULD be able to write to the Society and feel that our thoughts and feelings count for something. I've garnered from reading the posts here that that is often not the case.

Whether or not an expedient method is being used is not really the point. Maybe the organization is just too big to be able to concern itself with its' individual members. This is regrettable.

100

Preacher Jimmy Swaggart and JW Lawyers

by waiting in

in the supreme court of the united states, october tenth, 1988, case no.

88-1374, filed on june 22, 1988, clerk joseph f. spanol, jr.. on that date and file number, the attoreny james m. mccabe,and donald t. ridley, 25 colombia heights, brooklyn, ny 11251 (718)606-4993, attorneys for amicus curiae, watchtower bible and tract society of new york, inc. filed a "friends of the court" brief on the behalf of the famous preacher, jimmy swaggart and his ministries.. why would the watchtower society, direct channel for jehovah's holy spirt, which also godly hates babylon the great, which also christiandom is the largest part, go into the supreme court of the united states and file a legal brief to help jimmy swaggart's ministries in his trial which was case no.

88-1374: jimmy swaggart ministries, appelant vs. board of equalization of california, appeller?.

RedhorseWoman

Friend,

Believe me, I understand EXACTLY where you are going with your arguments. I have had NO trouble comprehending them. I feel that you are, however, ignoring the larger issue and concentrating on details that in my opinion are irrelevant.

As you have told me, you care nothing about my opinion. You are here, instead, to help us "see" the important things. Have I stated this correctly?

Each of my questions on this thread are for purposes of highlighting a critical point that
appears to be ill-considered in someone’s conclusion or else is a request for clarification.
When direct facts had already been likewise ill-considered then I proceeded to another
mode to stir thinking about a detail that, to me, is/was critical to resolution. If there is
something specific you have in mind let me know. I will be glad to redress it.

I interpret the above quote to mean that whereas others' opinions are of no import to you, your opinions must be of import to us. Not so.

This thread has revolved around the Society's filing a brief in support of Jimmy Swaggart's Ministry in order to support their own tax-exempt status.

Your questions have, for the most part, revolved around whether or not we feel it was illegal or improper for them to do so. Of course it wasn't illegal, and it was also a very smart move on their part to safeguard their income.

My point is, and has been all along, that the Society has for years condemned other organizations for seeking material riches. They have decried beautiful cathedrals and elegant churches. They have claimed to be above all this.

And yet, when it comes down to a matter of taxes on the selling of literature (and like or not, we have always sold literature), the procedure is tweaked just sufficiently enough to scuttle past the tax laws.

Good business....certainly. But for an organization that purports to strive for the highest ethical standards and which purports to be willing, nay eager, to pay whatever is rightfully due the government, this is a very sorry showing.

I definitely agree with all your points, Friend. They are all true. However, that doesn't change the fact that I dislike what has been done, and I consider it sleazy.

77

Writing private letters to the Society.

by spectromize in

for anyone who's ever written something of a private nature or asked clarification on certain beliefs have you ever had the unfortunate experience of the elders calling you in the back room or a sheperding call ?.

the reason i bring this out is that newer brothers or sisters don't know that everytime you write the society the society sends a copy of your letter to your local cong.

elders.

RedhorseWoman

Who says the individual ever knew the “procedure” was otherwise? If they “don’t know” then they don’t know what to expect anyway—just as you expressed. In that case, persons are equally apt to be shocked if they receive a written reply rather than a personal one?

Those who have expressed concerns on this bulletin board have also expressed the fact that they did not know of the procedure. They have stated several times that they expected to receive a written reply. They stated several times that they NEVER expected a personal visit from a local elder. Perhaps you missed their posts.

And why should they be equally shocked to receive a written reply? When you write to either a corporation or an individual, you don't expect to be ignored. Most people would expect to receive a written reply.

As I pointed out, large corporations have local agents respond in their behalf on a regular basis. Examples include the FBI, Insurance companies, etc….

I told you that I agreed with this statement. However, perhaps you didn't notice that I also stated that, in my experience with any sort of agency, I have ALWAYS received a letter informing me of what action they intended to take, and when.

Warn them of what?

You know very well of what they felt they needed to warn others. You've presumably read their posts. They felt they needed to warn others that the local elders might very well show up at their door unexpectedly. They felt they needed to warn others that their confidential letters to the Society weren't all that confidential.

When you call your mother and leave a message on her recorder that you need her help, do you consider it an act of inconsiderateness for her to rush over in person as soon as possible?

Unless it's a life or death situation (and in that case it's unlikely that my daughter would leave a message on my answering machine), I would DEFINITELY find out when it would be convenient for me to stop by....i.e. I would return her call. And, I would definitely NOT send Mr. Smith to her house in my place without letting her know.

Do you want their answer or not? That is the only question to be answered.

I have personally never written the Society, and I WILL tell you that since I have found out about the way they handle these matters, I will NEVER do so. If there is something that I don't feel I could comfortably discuss with a local elder, I will just find some other way to get the information. If it is an important matter (such as the problems Waiting has had to encounter) I would definitely get in touch with a lawyer and let them deal with the rest of it.

Edited by - RedhorseWoman on 7 June 2000 16:17:46

100

Preacher Jimmy Swaggart and JW Lawyers

by waiting in

in the supreme court of the united states, october tenth, 1988, case no.

88-1374, filed on june 22, 1988, clerk joseph f. spanol, jr.. on that date and file number, the attoreny james m. mccabe,and donald t. ridley, 25 colombia heights, brooklyn, ny 11251 (718)606-4993, attorneys for amicus curiae, watchtower bible and tract society of new york, inc. filed a "friends of the court" brief on the behalf of the famous preacher, jimmy swaggart and his ministries.. why would the watchtower society, direct channel for jehovah's holy spirt, which also godly hates babylon the great, which also christiandom is the largest part, go into the supreme court of the united states and file a legal brief to help jimmy swaggart's ministries in his trial which was case no.

88-1374: jimmy swaggart ministries, appelant vs. board of equalization of california, appeller?.

RedhorseWoman

Dear Friend,

I have noticed that whenever I have asked for specific responses from you, you have then turned around and asked questions of me rather than responding to what I have posted.

And, in fact, I have acknowledged your questions. However, your questions seem to me to tend toward the nitpicking aspects of the discussion where only a "yes" or "no" is the appropriate answer rather than examining the whole situation.

As Frenchy said, "JW's have a unique slant on words". I agree with this statement, and might I say, Friend, you employ this strategy very well.

I am not surprised, I've gotten used to the shifting of subject matter.....goes with the territory, I guess.

77

Writing private letters to the Society.

by spectromize in

for anyone who's ever written something of a private nature or asked clarification on certain beliefs have you ever had the unfortunate experience of the elders calling you in the back room or a sheperding call ?.

the reason i bring this out is that newer brothers or sisters don't know that everytime you write the society the society sends a copy of your letter to your local cong.

elders.

RedhorseWoman

If one does not know the procedure, and one expects it to be similar to the procedures experienced when dealing with other entities, one cannot be castigated for being shocked at what they consider to be a gross disregard of their rights.

I'm sure that those who have received this treatment will never write again to the Society. Their point in this whole discussion was to warn others of what they would be likely to experience.

I'm not saying that a mother shouldn't respond in person. I'm simply saying that a considerate mother would call first before dropping in.

100

Preacher Jimmy Swaggart and JW Lawyers

by waiting in

in the supreme court of the united states, october tenth, 1988, case no.

88-1374, filed on june 22, 1988, clerk joseph f. spanol, jr.. on that date and file number, the attoreny james m. mccabe,and donald t. ridley, 25 colombia heights, brooklyn, ny 11251 (718)606-4993, attorneys for amicus curiae, watchtower bible and tract society of new york, inc. filed a "friends of the court" brief on the behalf of the famous preacher, jimmy swaggart and his ministries.. why would the watchtower society, direct channel for jehovah's holy spirt, which also godly hates babylon the great, which also christiandom is the largest part, go into the supreme court of the united states and file a legal brief to help jimmy swaggart's ministries in his trial which was case no.

88-1374: jimmy swaggart ministries, appelant vs. board of equalization of california, appeller?.

RedhorseWoman

Funny, I don't remember the finger-pointing having ANYTHING to do with individuals, but rather the Catholic Church as a whole.

And don't try to say that no individuals benefit from the Society's wealth, because, whether it is directly or indirectly, they do. Free housing, limousines, first-class airline travel, 5-star hotels.....etc.

As far as standards are concerned.....well, that seems to fit perfectly well. The Society didn't meet the standards laid out, so they cried "foul".
Then the modus operandi was changed....sort of....to fit within the standard, although in actuality, nothing changed....just the semantics.

There hasn't been as much criticism of other religions lately (since the WTBTS has gotten richer and more like the religions it once berated), but I remember the scathing attacks well. The Catholic Church wasn't the only entity attacked, but was the most popular one.

It's the pot calling the kettle black, and I find it to be ludicrous.

77

Writing private letters to the Society.

by spectromize in

for anyone who's ever written something of a private nature or asked clarification on certain beliefs have you ever had the unfortunate experience of the elders calling you in the back room or a sheperding call ?.

the reason i bring this out is that newer brothers or sisters don't know that everytime you write the society the society sends a copy of your letter to your local cong.

elders.

RedhorseWoman

In any case where an inquiry is being forwarded to a local agency for attention (at least from my own experience), a form letter was sent notifying the questioner that the inquiry was being handled in that manner.

The Society does not inform anyone, it just assumes that it has the right to deal with the matter as it sees fit without feeling the necessity to inform anyone.

Would it be so difficult to send a form letter informing the questioner of the intent to forward their letter back to the local congregation? It would certainly ease people's minds to know what might be coming up.

I can see that your feelings are simply that this is the way they do it....get used to it.

My point is that as a "Mother" they should show a little more consideration for their children.