Posts by RevMalk

G'day Medos,
Since you are not, or ever have been, a JW (what we call Dubs), you may be a bit hazy on facts. Best to check 'em out before judging, eh?
Glad to have a non-Dub aboard. You may be able to give a new perspective, but please check your facts first before condemning. Ray Franz is held in very high regard by many because of the help that he has been in helping Dubs see the real Truth about the WTS.
Cheers, Ozzie

That seemed a bit harsh. Not knowing the facts and asking for help surely doesn't mean he had malicious intent.....

Welcome Medos!

Franz did carry these beliefs, but at the time he was, as mouthy pointed out, brainwashed and confused. He's no longer associated with the Watchtower, and no longer believes these things to be true (especially the 1975 theory, LOL)

117

The Fifth Estate: Post your comments HERE

by Scully in

for everyone who's watched.... or is in the process of watching the show..... .

please feel free to post your comments.... reactions.... quotes that stood out in your mind here!.

love, scully

RevMalk

Ok Outlaw, whatever. I wasn't trying to be mean, and I misunderstood as well, because I'm human. I'm not trying to argue with anyone, and I have an easy time of trying to get along with people. I don't generally have problems at all. I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you, this is redundant.

...."It`s crap out of people like you that gives this place a bad name."(Your words again Rev)

I was clearing making a joke here, that's why I had my little smiley face included. I meant no offense, I think you need to lighten up buddy, we're suppose to be enjoying our time hear, not ripping each other apart.

4

Fifth Estate - FTP Sites Needed for Hosting...

by reporter in

i've taken the liberty to send simon the low-bandwidth version of the file, which he has kindly hosted.

if anybody wishes to host them, i have two more files, one 55 megs and the other 156 megs, which are of increasingly levels of quality, it would be a great help to those who wand "broadband" video quality.

if any have suggestions for good (or cheap), or even temporary ftp sites to use, please post them here on this thread.

RevMalk

Wednesday,

I think even zipping it you'll be way too big for email. You can find it here if you need a link to it, but apparently you have it already. You can send that link to whoever you need to, and they can download it by right clicking and then clicking "Save Target as".

http://www.lambsroar.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=2191#2191

62

Bill Bowen talks about CBC Fifth Estate!

by UnDisfellowshipped in

jw
friends

they confronted the elder who served in his investigation who said he would not talk on camera but instead sent a letter that said since mike was 17 when he came to them they did not have to report.

bill.

bill,.

RevMalk

It`s about time people working for the same goal,quit ragging on each other..It`s f*****g pathetic

I think you're probably correct. I wasn't really trying to 'rag' on him though, I just have certain opinions of things. I don't think he's a bad guy, I really don't. If I screw up, or start heading down a road that I shouldn't be, I hope the rest of you guys will be there to slap me upside my head. I try my best to help out, and that's all I can do, and I certainly would never want to do anything that's against the wishes of fellow survivors.

4

Fifth Estate - FTP Sites Needed for Hosting...

by reporter in

i've taken the liberty to send simon the low-bandwidth version of the file, which he has kindly hosted.

if anybody wishes to host them, i have two more files, one 55 megs and the other 156 megs, which are of increasingly levels of quality, it would be a great help to those who wand "broadband" video quality.

if any have suggestions for good (or cheap), or even temporary ftp sites to use, please post them here on this thread.

RevMalk

I have all sorts of space you can use, email me.

62

Bill Bowen talks about CBC Fifth Estate!

by UnDisfellowshipped in

jw
friends

they confronted the elder who served in his investigation who said he would not talk on camera but instead sent a letter that said since mike was 17 when he came to them they did not have to report.

bill.

bill,.

RevMalk

I just wanted to say that I didn't mean to offend anyone by my comments. They are my personal opinions on these things, and that's all. I know they've been discussed to death, but you know what? It'd be alot easier to forget if Ray wasn't attacked and accused of crimes against humanity on a weekly basis (that may be an exaggeration, but I'll bet at least 50% of his SL announcements contain the name of Ray Franz). I myself have never spoken to Bill without a huge conversation about how horrible Ray is, he's hung up on this issue.

I personally think we're doing an injustice to Mr Franz by allowing these things to be stated here. I'm not saying silentlambs information shouldn't be posted here, I just think these things should be edited for our viewing pleasure, because it does no-one any good to keep going through this.

For the record, Cass, I am a supporter of silentlambs, LambsRoar supports the cause heavily on a daily basis. We carry links to silentlambs.org, we have a countdown clock for the march this year, we speak favorably (for the most part) about Bill and silentlambs, so please don't think I hate the guy or that I think he's evil, because that is not the case. I just think he should stop with the Franz crap, it's immature. And just because some happen to disagree with a tactic that he uses regularly, doesn't mean that we think his heart isn't in the right place. Many people have tried to help Bill to understand these things, but he won't listen. Perhaps you and Unf'd and Hawkaw, and Scully and others that are closer to Bill will have better luck getting through to him.

He's not perfect, and no-one expects him to be, but if he doesn't listen to one damn thing the Abuse Survivors are telling him, the Abuse Survivors that he claims to protect, then that's a problem. I just think that by bringing this issue up repeatedly is not intelligent. Do we jump on it every time he does it? Yes, because he did it again, and personally that's what I can't understand. Leave it alone, because first of all he's completely wrong regarding Ray, and second of all, he's just a guilty as Ray (see above). If we just ignore when he does wrong 'for the good of the cause' then there's nothing to keep him in check. To not point out the wrong would be a crime in itself, because then you're just putting way too much power in the hands of one man. We're free now, free to have opinions, free to disagree, free to make our own decisions. If we just put the wrong aside and back up an organization when they hurt innocent people, just because they do good things, is putting us back at square one again.

I'll try to keep my mouth shut, but I don't think that's fair, not when the wrong continues to grow and flourish. It'd be a different story if the topic was just dropped after the first tour. In my opinion he does it because it pisses us off. He claims to have had this belief for quite some time, way before he mentioned it in the first place. Then he saw how we reacted once he did bring it up, now it's a regular part of the silentlambs cause. And that's what happens. You give a guy a following that will swallow any kind of garbage that flows from his lips, and the wrong becomes a pillar in the organization. If everyone that followed the silentlambs cause would have the strength and power to stand up for what is right, he'd have no choice but to listen. But no, some are too weak still, to do what is right, and they continue to feed this growing tactic of hurting the innocent. We are the Survivors, this is true, but are we any better if we stand by and allow an innocent man to be hurt by this? No, I think it makes us worse. We're ready to take anyone down for the crimes that have been committed against us, whether they deserve it or not. This is wrong. And if we disagree with Bill on this, but keep our mouths shut and simply allow these things to occur because this man is fighting for us, then that's even more wrong. I think we need to sit back, and think about how Mr. Franz must feel.....an 80 year old man, who's done so much for us. Do you think he sits in his office, or wakes up in the morning hurt by these things? He's human, of course he does. And you think it's ok for us to be a part of that, just because we're getting satisfaction? If it were you that was being attacked and accused of these things, would you feel the same way?

62

Bill Bowen talks about CBC Fifth Estate!

by UnDisfellowshipped in

jw
friends

they confronted the elder who served in his investigation who said he would not talk on camera but instead sent a letter that said since mike was 17 when he came to them they did not have to report.

bill.

bill,.

RevMalk

However, you've got admit that that was a pretty wicked and cruel Policy anyway -- to set up Judicial Committees to interrogate children to find out if they had committed "sexual sins" such as fornication.

I do agree this is not a good thing. BUT, if you can say that Ray Franz had these intentions then you can say that Bill Bowen may have and probably has been involved in these proceedings.

As a matter of fact, I was emailed by a girl who claims this is exactly the case (this was not a molestation case). When she was 14, she claims Bill interrogated her beyond belief. She says he (and 2 other elders) wanted to know every dirty detail. How do I know she's telling the truth? I don't. And that's my exact point, you can't believe everything you hear. BUT, if she is lying, why would she have not lied about the case being about molestation rather than simple fornication? And furthermore, if Bill has been involved with interrogations of minors (and it'd be hard to believe in all those years he hadn't been), and he himself followed Ray's directives, well then he's about as big a hypocrite as they come.

I'm not saying this is the case, I'm merely speculating. It was ok to speculate that Ray Franz has been involved in such cases, so why not Bill Bowen? He's got us convinced that in all the years Ray Franz served, he MUST have come across such cases, yet he'd like us to believe HE (BB) never has. WHAT???

So what took him so long to come forward? What makes him better than Ray Franz if he followed the letter of Franz's written law to a "T" up until 2 years ago? Come on, what Bill did as an elder means nothing, and what Ray Franz did as an elder means nothing, because neither one is at this time, YET one is throwing accusations in the other direction, when he's guilty of the same things! Maybe not writing the policy but he sure as hell followed it!

(I'm not being argumentative by the way, I just get excited, haha)

Ray Franz's Policy does not specifically mention molestation cases, so to attribute his intentions in that direction is wrong no matter how you slice it up, and hypocritical, no matter how you look at it. He claims Ray wrote this directive knowing full well that the molestation issue was a problem back in 1973 when molestation was still hush-hush. Meanwhile, Bill Bowen FOLLOWED this directive knowing FULL WELL that molestation was a problem, up until 20 years AFTER Ray Franz left the Watchtower and almost 30 years past the time period the policy took effect. Why are we all so blind to these things?? Am I holding it against Bill that he followed these policies knowing the effects it could and would and has had on children? NO, he's 'repented', he's changed his ways. But I will sure as hell hold it against him if he continues to be a hypocrite. I apologize if I'm offending anyone, but these are the hard facts.

unless of course Bill Bowen had no idea of these things. No idea of the effects of this policy, no idea that molestation existed within the organization, and no idea that the policy was in effect for 30 years. If that's the case, then he owes Ray Franz the biggest apology in the world, because the same could certainly be true of him, 30 years prior.

RevMalk said:
I know Bill says that he (Ray Franz) was accused of Child Molestation in '69,
I didn't know that.

Bill told me this on the phone, I 'might' have the year wrong, but it was somewhere in that period of time that he claims Ray was accused, and found to be innocent.

I honestly don't believe the Watchtower Society would ever be stupid enough to try and take Bill Bowen to court for "slander" -- because then it would bring out A LOT of the Watchtower's dirty laundry.

This may or may not be the case. It all depends on how much hassle he causes them. It may come about that they feel taking him out will be the best thing in the long run. If they come to the conclusion that this is going to get real bad (worse than it is now), then they might just take the gamble. Chances are it won't come to that, but it's always best to be careful of what you say and who you say it to, just in case, and that was my only point.

Look, I'm behind Bill in this thing, I really am, but he's got to cut the shit. He takes something wonderful like the CBC episode, and he makes it filthy......and that's a bad thing. Be careful questioning him on the Ray Franz deal....I did that a time or two and you see where it got me.

62

Bill Bowen talks about CBC Fifth Estate!

by UnDisfellowshipped in

jw
friends

they confronted the elder who served in his investigation who said he would not talk on camera but instead sent a letter that said since mike was 17 when he came to them they did not have to report.

bill.

bill,.

RevMalk

You see, Bill is basically saying: "The Governing Body claims that Ray Franz is the biggest, baddest, most evil Apostate ever, and yet they keep following Rules that this Apostate wrote!"

I get this part. I don't agree with it, but I understand what he's trying to do. It makes no sense though, and I'll tell you why. Yes, the society despises Ray Franz, but they believe he lost his grace with God, not that he never had it. To use this as a way out for the WT, would be admitting that Ray was not appointed by God in the first place. In other words, if they came out and said "We're changing this policy because we've come to the realization that it was written by an apostate", would mean:

1) Admitting that Ray did not have the Holy Spirit when he served

2) Admitting that every decision by a person that held any sort of position within the WT (including Elders) that have been DF'd are now null and void, because they too are not of God.

3) Changing everything he ever wrote, and frankly, some of what Ray wrote IS THE TRUTH. You can't head up the writing dept for that many years and not hit something right.

4) Admitting that God does NOT appoint it's servants, or at the very least, admitting that the arrangement is flawed.

This just won't work, it's a waste of time, it's a waste of energy and it makes us look stupid, all of us.

If they needed an easy way out, they'd just read the Bible and find new light, it's worked every time in the past, and it'd work now, they'd lose alot less R/F witnesses with new light than they would by admitting the list above and much more where that came from. I just don't see any of this doing any good.....it's only hurting alot of people, and it's causing divisions within the cause, and it's taking up alot of our time arguing about it, when we could be doing other things to support silentlambs. But in all honesty, if this is the way it's going, alot of us can't support Bill under these circumstances with clear consciences. Falsely accusing a person is just plain wrong, and accusing a person without any proof is just a wrong, whether Ray is this horrible person or not. You know, I heard a saying once:

"Satan will tell you 1000 truths to get you to believe a single lie" - And one single lie is enough for me. (I'm not saying Bill is Satan)

I just had no idea he was accusing the guy of these horrible pre-meditated crimes. I mean it's one thing to say he wrote the policy (which I'm not believing), but it's another to say he wrote this for this reason, and was not only involved in these things, but instigated them.

UNDF'd.....I know you're a smart guy.....but be careful buddy, ok? That's some harsh unfounded garbage. Even if it wasn't garbage, he has no proof of these allegations, and you just can't do that.....

I can't go along with this stuff.....These things that are being said and done are just wrong.

Let me clarify again, because this is shocking news to me, and I apologize if I'm misunderstanding. Perhaps everyone understood and I'm just blind, but are you saying that Bill believes that Ray wrote this policy to cover up child abuse? Or that it was one of the main reasons? That he is the author of a policy that was meant to intimidate abuse victims into silence??

I know Bill says that he (Ray Franz) was accused of Child Molestation in '69, and that's why he's doing this, but come on, sometimes you have to be real careful, and this is not being careful. He has to look at the bigger picture, and this is NOT going to be effective. If anything, they can be building a case of libel and slander a mile high, and they'll take their great big watchtower foot and just smash him and the cause right into the ground. Don't you think they're keeping records of everything he says? They're not just sitting there waiting for him to attack, they're not that stupid.

he set forth directives that required judicial action against minor children for gross loose conduct or fornication, or is such that brings the congregation into a bad light in the community. This wicked directive has been used now for thirty years to punish children who were molested by charging them with wrongdoing for being involved in a sexual act. This directive even included non-baptized minor children, a directive that hurt so many children that it was finally adjusted in the mid 1980s.

62

Bill Bowen talks about CBC Fifth Estate!

by UnDisfellowshipped in

jw
friends

they confronted the elder who served in his investigation who said he would not talk on camera but instead sent a letter that said since mike was 17 when he came to them they did not have to report.

bill.

bill,.

RevMalk

I don`t see Bill Bowen getting all the credit.There are a great many posts on this board to prove it.

Why don't you take a count of how many times he's been mentioned and how many times the survivors have been mentioned, and then get back to us.

There were also hero`s we didn`t see on that program like hawk and scully..

I have no idea what they've done, but if they contributed, then yes they are to be commended. I'll tell you one thing Outlaw, you can track my posts, and you'll find I have complimented Bill more than I've criticized, and frankly my criticisms have been very restrained. I think once again you're jumping the gun in a situation you know nothing about.

RevMalk you`ve got a hot coal up your ass when it comes to Bill Bowen..

There may be some truth to this, but I didn't put it there. I inadvertently sat on it when I put my life and family aside to help him for close to a year....out of the kindness of my heart. Yes, that's right, I have a kind heart, no matter what you might think.

The man has faults like everbody else,but he did get Silent Lambs this far..

That's true, and I don't see anyone calling him Satan, people are giving their opinions, just like we have a right to, and just like he has a right to his. He's good at what he does (getting on tv), but that doesn't mean he's above criticism, where would you get the idea that he, or anyone for that matter is?

He championed those who could not fight for themselves..Whether you like him or not,he has done his best to do the right thing...OUTLAW

Bullshit! He's done alot, yes, but WE CAN FIGHT FOR OURSELVES! We're just as strong as you are, if not stronger. WE ARE THE SURVIVORS! And we may be glad he's here to help, but we're not helpless little lambs that need anyone to come save us! I resent the insinuation that I am too weak to fight for my own rights! Don't EVER look at any of us like that!

I have nothing against you, really, but get that ridiculous thought right out of your head.