Posts by TheWonderofYou

15

Acts 15,19-21 James on Dietary Law and Blood ( some of the oldest available manuscripts with the passage)

by TheWonderofYou in

the bible manuscript below is a picture of the p45 (gregory aland number) from the 3rd century.

i have cut out the passage of acts 15,19-21 from the greek text.

you can compare the p45 with the greek text from nestle aland.

TheWonderofYou

Interim conclusions - Early witnesses for Acts 15,20

1. Early versions in papyri

Early versions in papyri containing Acts are preserved in papyri from 3rd century until 4th century

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Acts_of_the_Apostles_papyri

The passage Acts 15,20 is however only preserved in P45 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_45
The Payprus bodmer XVII, P74 also bearing Acts 15,20 is only from the 7th century.

So we have only one papyrus-witness from 3d century with Acts 15,20 and with „strangled“

2. Early versions of Acts in Codices.

We have only those 4 great codices from 4th-6rh century which contain Acts.

Codex Sinaiticus (X) discovered in the Monastery of St. Catherine in the Sinai; today in London, British Library) http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=51&chapter=15&lid=en&side=r&verse=20&zoomSlider=0

Codex Vaticanus (B; 4th century; today in Rome) http://www.csntm.org/Manuscript/View/GA_03

Codex Alexandrinus (A, fifth century, now in London, British Library) http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/FullDisplay.aspx?ref=Royal_MS_1_D_VIII

and Codex EphraemiRescriptus (C, 5th century, washed down in the twelfth century and described with tracts of the Syrian ecclesiastical father; today in Paris).

The first three contain chapter 15 and the pasage 15,20 in the same version with "strangled", as we have seen above.

All these versions have in Acts similarites and cholars see conformity in this text tradition, as we have seen also in the text tradition of Acts 15,20
briefness and shortness
austerity simple grammatic
unfanciful and uncomplicated writings style
and characterise this text version of NT and similar texts as " Alexandrian type", "Eastern text", "Egyptian text" or also "Neutral text" (Westcoot and Hort), Classification IV from Nestle-Aland. Scholars like Metzger consider it to be the best text and most faithful in preserving the original text.
The same is the case with the papyrus 45, the oldest manuscript with Acts 15. The P45 is also subordinated in the classical methode under this text body type. Is a casarean text type and originates in Alexandria.
Since the discovered Bodmer Papyri P66 (from 200 or 125 A.D. containing John) and P75 (from about 225 A.D. containing Luke and John) have shown also that this „genus“ of writings already could go back to a text body type from the early second century, this would mean that also this version of Acts 15,20 with „strangled“ in it, is presumeably the original text (however P66 and P75 dont include Acts 15).

25

Australian Royal Commission mentions that G. Jackson was inconsistent

by Daniel1555 in

it's great that the following is officially mentioned in the royal commission's report:.

when asked if the governing body members saw themselves as ‘jehovah god’s spokespeople on earth’, mr geoffrey jackson answered that it ‘would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that god is using’.

mr jackson’s response seems to be inconsistent with the documentary evidence before the royal commission, which shows that jehovah’s witnesses believe that the governing body is the ‘channel’ by which jehovah’s ‘will’ is communicated to them..

TheWonderofYou

Does anyone else think the recent Watchtower article stating that the FDS is neither infallible nor inspired is connected with this?

Yes. I think its connected.

"The infallible in doctrine and procedure" subject will be studied in the congregations and everbody will fast jump on the driving train.

"Aahh, how wise the GB is and humble, and that we get this councel at the proper time when the whole world is against us". We are the only religion that changes. Now we can show that we still follow loyaly the GB even if it changes the procedure or gets rid of unfitting procedures concerning the 2 witness rule. Actually the old understanding of the 2 witness rule was not only a guilt of the GB but of all JWs who have false understood it".

It was obviously already arranged that the Service desk waited for the report of the commision to have a basis for its further legal counceling and for working out a fitting scriptural response and organisational response.

It was obvioulsy clear that JW would not act from themselves without any pressure or urgence throught the higher authorities in Australia, because also in other countries there is not need for such a rushing ahead obedience what regards handling of abuse cases. No mandatory reporting wished.

The Governing body could even be not much more happy that "pressure" and "urgence" comes from the higher authority. so they can MAKE CHANGE HAPPEN without loosing GB-face.Hopefully they see that loophole.

Its a healsome persecution for them, even a blessing. They can call it persecution but utilze it as unavoidable change with one stroke.

I cant await the outcome. That is getting really exciting.

23

Washington Post is carrying the story: Australian Jehovah’s Witnesses protected over a thousand members accused of child abuse, report says

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/11/28/australian-jehovahs-witnesses-protected-over-a-thousand-members-accused-of-child-abuse-report-says/.

over the course of about six decades, more than 1,000 members of the jehovah’s witnesses were accused of sexually abusing australian children, according to a new report.

victims were ordered to keep quiet.

TheWonderofYou

Australia: 1005 cases of any form of sexual abuse since 1950. In 56 years.
Lets divide 1005 through 700 congregations. That make 1,4 abusers in 56 years per congregation. 60000 JW compared with 1005 cases makes 1,6 % of publishers are going from house to house and are a risk. They should always have company and certainly no minors.

USA 25000 unreported cases according to the press in 14000 congregations. Makes. 1,7 abuser case in 56 years (if 1950 was the year the worldwide collection of data began) That brings us to 1200000 JW in USA compared to 25000 cases makes even 2 % of publishers a risk.

Canada 116000 publishers with 1,6 % "risk of abuse" makes 1856 possible cases again for 56 years.

__

What if the 25000 cases are meant worldwide? Then we would get a better picture.

If you take 118000 congregations and divide it through 25000 you get 4,7. Each 4th or 5th congregation would have had an abuse case in 56 years. That would even make a better image.

If we applied a cautious 1,5 percent risk ratio worldwide we would get with 8000000 JW exactly 80000 abuse cases worldwide in 56 years notabene.

___

Violence and women - a worldwide problem

Two factors are important:

- Many unreported cases

- experts say that each 3rd woman has been abused or beaten or experienced other forms of violence in a lifetime (30% of all women)

In that case and in this bandwith the 1-2% of abuse cases in the JW-church are not so much in quantity but dreadful because they happen in a socially closed group with unacceptable rules e.g. they go hand in hand with shunning and loose of all family and social peer group contact.

Even if violence is not included in the 1-2 % it seems that the percentage of violence and abuse in the JW church is less than in the average population.

Nevertheless the JW-cases go hand in hand with other forms of psychological abuse and violence. (shunning eg.) which also counts heavily for the victims.

7

Readers Digest - Early Text of the New Testament

by TheWonderofYou in

https://books.google.at/books?id=ttnrzxcvggyc&pg=pa162&lpg=pa162&dq=p38+papyrus+michigan&source=bl&ots=iwzmjy4bmu&sig=lpsfa1rd31f4d-olxunuztjhuqg&hl=de&sa=x&ved=0ahukewiek-eh3cvqahvcfhokhzkgdagq6aeistak#v=onepage&q=p38%20papyrus%20michigan&f=false.

i recommend to read the introduction (free preview) at google preview containing stuff about.

- early text and original text p3- papyri and early text- classifying early papyri readings- text quality - earl text a free text?- transmission quality- public and privat copies- textal and scribal culture- book trade in the roman empire.

TheWonderofYou

sThank you for the information.

Instead he argues that texts are always fluid and their dynamism should be explored rather than tamed by dubious static notions of originality and corruption.

Thats indeed a very important saying. Because from the oral tradition to the writings and even in the time of writing down the New Testament memories or letters there was no central authority that decided what kind of text is "acceptable" or not. The "writing down"-project was a "living" project.... as you call it "dynamic".

The fact that there are version of the text e.g. in Acts where we have a text with and without "strangled", texts with better grammer or less grammer, more fanciful stories and more autere stories, all this is hint that it doesnt turn around what is the earliest manuscript but about how the text developed, was accepted, then how it was used, by whom and for what and where. Alone these things are things we can be happy to have a bible, a single word, or phrase can reveal much about the history of development but doesnt urge us to become literalits and bigoted.

This is an interesting series of lectures about the Development of the New Testament, by Prof. Dr. Stefan Schreiber at University Heidelberg. - from oral tradition until biblical canon principle. He compares the development of the biblical canon with the differene between sect and church.

"Plurality is allowed and at the same time limited, thats the canon principle."
This decision is important if one thinks socialogical.
For a sect, as social term, its characteristic that it creates homogenity. Members of a sect have to follow very plain the rules of the group and there is nothing outside of the group. A very plain limited course.
For a church it is again characteristic that it is plural but not arbitrary. In a church more streams will have room.
For me that seems to be very important if I look in my church.....where there are certain tendencies of narrowing. It is not liked anymore that one thinks to much in this or that direction. That is not in.
Thats understandable at one hand, because one has then a clear line, but on the other side there is the problem that the plurality that is inherent for Christendom falls by the wayside.- Then church becomes a narrow corrodor and no vastness" (translation mine)

The bible development, the acceptance of bandwith, more spectrum than one in the canonization-process, how the church handled it, itself is a witness for PLURALITY at one hand and LIMITATION at the other hand. Thoughts have to be allowed. A sect can even be created by publishing an own bible translation.

If the Governing Body would listen to such information that would change much in the watchtowers understanding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCwACZre4co&t=28s&index=5&list=PL8BvS9GnE53d7yhhxRFJr1DuOst1wMRaJ

138

Jehovah God is Real

by TakeOffTheCrown in

there are many on this site that do not believe that jehovah truly exists; that he is not a real being.

but, he is as real as next breath you draw into your nostrils.. some of you say that there is no evidence that he exists.

yet, none of you can prove that he does not exits.. cofty, (you come to mind), i appreciate that you have stated, without reservation, that you do not believe that god exists.. yet, you cannot prove it.. hope in jehovah..

TheWonderofYou

Another german poet who mentions "jehova"

Da war der Fucks, ein blinder Heid'
Und persönlicher Feind des Jehova,
Glaubt nur an Hegel und etwa noch
An die Venus des Canova.

...

Der Edle hatte ausgehaucht
Die große Seele soeben,
Und wird als verklärter Seraph jetzt
Am Throne Jehovas schweben.

Wintermärchen by Heinrich Heine

From "spoken german lyrics" + search for appearances of "jehova"

http://www.deutschelyrik.de/index.php/suche.html?keywords=jehova

___

If God is real "he" "she" is "present" "omnipresent", okaaay.

The poet speaks of the omnipresence of god in the most holy and says that you and me can be there in the most holy and that this is a matter of awareness. This seems to be a typcial "christianty"-idea, a pagan idea for JW of course.

I like that idea much more than the distortet worldview of Jehovahs witnesses that since 1914 we have an "invisible presence of God or jesus" after his already happened "coming" as king of the kingdom and waiting for the ultimate "coming at armageddon or whatever".

I wish you a beautiful Advent-time, a tradition that is 500% more beautiful than the distortet gospel of watchtower.

Just read this by TerryWalstrom?

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5704311231217664/silly-obsession-jehovahs-witnesses-conspiracy-theory-about-return-christ

The bible is a book of hope, memories and sages of hebrews and jews and it doesnt proove the existence of God. It doesnt give the answer "Why", but it only asks why the evil exists. Jesus on the cross asked the father "Why"?when he cited the psalm.

My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?
Why so far from my call for help,
from my cries of anguish?a NABRE

Christians did not really understand why all that happend, why this wonderful man jesus was killed. Now he was a cursed.

But as they have known what Jesus preached and knew his mercy and how he loved his folks they "feeled" that he was near to god, like in gods presence, and so they began to preach that love would overcome lately the evils of the world.

The message of Jesus, concentration on the presence of god, what is namely meant with the "kingdom", and "heaven", becoming praying people was always more important than answers. If one prays, acts in mercy and love and rightousness than the "heaven" and the "kingdom" is already present, has already come to you.

Thats my adventstory for you.

138

Jehovah God is Real

by TakeOffTheCrown in

there are many on this site that do not believe that jehovah truly exists; that he is not a real being.

but, he is as real as next breath you draw into your nostrils.. some of you say that there is no evidence that he exists.

yet, none of you can prove that he does not exits.. cofty, (you come to mind), i appreciate that you have stated, without reservation, that you do not believe that god exists.. yet, you cannot prove it.. hope in jehovah..

TheWonderofYou

Heinrich Heine "Belsazar" about jehovahs "mene Tekel"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wW2SLkf89g

138

Jehovah God is Real

by TakeOffTheCrown in

there are many on this site that do not believe that jehovah truly exists; that he is not a real being.

but, he is as real as next breath you draw into your nostrils.. some of you say that there is no evidence that he exists.

yet, none of you can prove that he does not exits.. cofty, (you come to mind), i appreciate that you have stated, without reservation, that you do not believe that god exists.. yet, you cannot prove it.. hope in jehovah..

TheWonderofYou

Somebody should paint a sequel of Asterix and Obelix about the Question "Jehovah is invisible present".

Or we could listen to Friedrich Gottlieb Klopstocks "Die Allgegenwart Gottes" - "The Omnipresence of God"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkT2NwJ0eiw

Wenige nur, ach, wenige sind,
Deren Aug in der Schöpfung
Den, der geschaffen har, sieht!
Wenige, deren Ohr
In dem mächtigen Rauschen des Sturmwinds,
Im Donner, der rollt,
Oder im lispelnden Bache,
Den Unerschaffnen hört!
Wenige Herzen erfüllt
Mit Ehrfurcht und Schauer
Gottes Allgegenwart.

Lass mich, im Heiligtume,
Dich, Allgegenwärtiger!
Stets suchen, und finden!
Und wenn er mir entflieht,
dieser himmlische Gedanke,
lass mich ihn tiefanbetend
Aus den Chören der Seraphim
Ihn mit lauten Tränen der freude
Herunter rufen,
Damit ich, dich zu schaun,
Mich bereite, mich weihe,
Dich zu schaun!
Im Allerheiligsten!

138

Jehovah God is Real

by TakeOffTheCrown in

there are many on this site that do not believe that jehovah truly exists; that he is not a real being.

but, he is as real as next breath you draw into your nostrils.. some of you say that there is no evidence that he exists.

yet, none of you can prove that he does not exits.. cofty, (you come to mind), i appreciate that you have stated, without reservation, that you do not believe that god exists.. yet, you cannot prove it.. hope in jehovah..

TheWonderofYou

Googling for "Kiergegaaard" I found this site "Science". What is this about. Is this about God? Did jehovah write this wikiquotes?

If jehovah had really something to say then this would be the occassion to say it now and to post a comment here and now. If he agrees or not.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Science

We have become aware of the massive information contained in the genes. There is no known way to science how that information can arise spontaneously. It requires an intelligence; it cannot arise from chance events. Just mixing letters does not produce words.” He added: “For example, the very complex DNA, RNA, protein replicating system in the cell must have been perfect from the very start. If not, life systems could not exist. The only logical explanation is that this vast quantity of information came from an intelligence.
Maciej Giertych, a noted geneticist from the Institute of Dendrology of the Polish Academy of Sciences, Interviewed in a documentary film. Cited in the book: Is There a Creator Who Cares About You? published by Jehovah's Witnesses.

___

This is a poem by Klopstock - in this poem "Jehova" was reality in the role of the "Weathergod".

http://www.sn.schule.de/~fb-deutsch/downloads/komm-ins-offene.pdf

Klopstock lived 1724-1803, he used "jehovah"

Die Frühlingsfeier

Friedrich Gottlieb Klopstock

(1759/71)

(Vgl. die 1. Fassung)

Nicht in den Ozean der Welten alle
Will ich mich stürzen! schweben nicht,
Wo die ersten Erschaffnen, die Jubelchöre der Söhne des Lichts,
Anbeten, tief anbeten! und in Entzückung vergehn!

Nur um den Tropfen am Eimer,
Um die Erde nur, will ich schweben, und anbeten!
Halleluja! Halleluja! Der Tropfen am Eimer
Rann aus der Hand, des Allmächtigen auch!

Da der Hand des Allmächtigen
Die größeren Erden entquollen!
Die Ströme des Lichts rauschten, und Siebengestirne wurden,
Da entrannest du, Tropfen, der Hand des Allmächtigen!

Da ein Strom des Lichts rauscht', und unsre Sonne wurde!
Ein Wogensturz sich stürzte wie vom Felsen
Der Wolk' herab, und den Orion gürtete,
Da entrannest du, Tropfen, der Hand des Allmächtigen!

Wer sind die tausendmal tausend, wer die Myriaden alle,
Welche den Tropfen bewohnen, und bewohnten? und wer bin ich?
Halleluja dem Schaffenden! mehr wie die Erden, die quollen!
Mehr, wie die Siebengestirne, die aus Strahlen zusammenströmten!

Aber du Frühlingswürmchen,
Das grünlichgolden neben mir spielt,
Du lebst; und bist vielleicht
Ach nicht unsterblich!

Ich bin heraus gegangen anzubeten,
Und ich weine? Vergieb, vergieb
Auch diese Thräne dem Endlichen,
O du, der seyn wird!

Du wirst die Zweifel alle mir enthüllen,
O du, der mich durch das dunkle Thal
Des Todes führen wird! Ich lerne dann,
Ob eine Seele das goldene Würmchen hatte.

Bist du nur gebildeter Staub,
Sohn des Mays, so werde denn
Wieder verfliegender Staub,
Oder was sonst der Ewige will!

Ergeuß von neuem du, mein Auge,
Freudenthränen!
Du, meine Harfe,
Preise den Herrn!

Umwunden wieder, mit Palmen
Ist meine Harf' umwunden! ich singe dem Herrn!
Hier steh ich. Rund um mich
Ist Alles Allmacht! und Wunder Alles!

Mit tiefer Ehrfurcht schau ich die Schöpfung an,
Denn Du!
Namenloser, Du!
Schufest sie!

Lüfte, die um mich wehn, und sanfte Kühlung
Auf mein glühendes Angesicht hauchen,
Euch, wunderbare Lüfte,
Sandte der Herr! der Unendliche!

Aber jetzt werden sie still, kaum athmen sie.
Die Morgensonne wird schwül!
Wolken strömen herauf!
Sichtbar ist, der komt, der Ewige!

Nun schweben sie, rauschen sie, wirbeln die Winde!
Wie beugt sich der Wald! wie hebt sich der Strom!
Sichtbar, wie du es Sterblichen seyn kanst,
Ja, das bist du, sichtbar, Unendlicher!

Der Wald neigt sich, der Strom fliehet, und ich
Falle nicht auf mein Angesicht?
Herr! Herr! Gott! barmherzig und gnädig!
Du Naher! erbarme dich meiner!

Zürnest du, Herr,
Weil Nacht dein Gewand ist?
Diese Nacht ist Segen der Erde.
Vater, du zürnest nicht!

Sie komt, Erfrischung auszuschütten,
Über den stärkenden Halm!
Über die herzerfreuende Traube!
Vater, du zürnest nicht!

Alles ist still vor dir, du Naher!
Rings umher ist Alles still!
Auch das Würmchen mit Golde bedeckt, merkt auf!
Ist es vielleicht nicht seelenlos? ist es unsterblich?

Ach, vermöcht' ich dich, Herr, wie ich dürste, zu preisen!
Immer herlicher offenbarest du dich!
Immer dunkler wird die Nacht um dich,
Und voller von Segen!

Seht ihr den Zeugen des Nahen den zückenden Strahl?
Hört ihr Jehova's Donner?
Hört ihr ihn? hört ihr ihn,
Den erschütternden Donner des Herrn?

Herr! Herr! Gott!
Barmherzig, und gnädig!
Angebetet, gepriesen
Sey dein herlicher Name!

Und die Gewitterwinde? sie tragen den Donner!
Wie sie rauschen! wie sie mit lauter Woge den Wald durchströmen!
Und nun schweigen sie. Langsam wandelt
Die schwarze Wolke.

Seht ihr den neuen Zeugen des Nahen, den fliegenden Strahl?
Höret ihr hoch in der Wolke den Donner des Herrn?
Er ruft: Jehova! Jehova!
Und der geschmetterte Wald dampft!

Aber nicht unsre Hütte!
Unser Vater gebot
Seinem Verderber,
Vor unsrer Hütte vorüberzugehn!

Ach, schon rauscht, schon rauscht
Himmel, und Erde vom gnädigen Regen!
Nun ist, wie dürstete sie! die Erd' erquickt,
Und der Himmel der Segensfüll' entlastet!

Siehe, nun komt Jehova nicht mehr im Wetter,
In stillem, sanftem Säuseln
Komt Jehova,
Und unter ihm neigt sich der Bogen des Friedens!

23

Washington Post is carrying the story: Australian Jehovah’s Witnesses protected over a thousand members accused of child abuse, report says

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/11/28/australian-jehovahs-witnesses-protected-over-a-thousand-members-accused-of-child-abuse-report-says/.

over the course of about six decades, more than 1,000 members of the jehovah’s witnesses were accused of sexually abusing australian children, according to a new report.

victims were ordered to keep quiet.

TheWonderofYou

I bet you anything that the GB simply waited for the report to have a basis for a legal and scriptural response and react more smoothly to the accusations. They only act if the authority wants it . Perhaps they waited for this loophole to get rid of shunning and 2 witness rule and throw both away. They cant do it themselves, but only if they are urged by authorities.

What if they offered a deal: they could hand out to the Commission the "australian files" about all cases and open it for a "public" police and legal check-through or simple give insight to the computer-database?

Then they could invite the officials to the new Headquarters in America and show them how they "hort" the "abuse cases" withouth reporting them, so claring that and how their JW intelligence works fine.

Then together with the lawyers from the higher authority each case shall receive special attention and time, a detailed agenda will be worked out, what to do and how to recompense victims.

_

7

Readers Digest - Early Text of the New Testament

by TheWonderofYou in

https://books.google.at/books?id=ttnrzxcvggyc&pg=pa162&lpg=pa162&dq=p38+papyrus+michigan&source=bl&ots=iwzmjy4bmu&sig=lpsfa1rd31f4d-olxunuztjhuqg&hl=de&sa=x&ved=0ahukewiek-eh3cvqahvcfhokhzkgdagq6aeistak#v=onepage&q=p38%20papyrus%20michigan&f=false.

i recommend to read the introduction (free preview) at google preview containing stuff about.

- early text and original text p3- papyri and early text- classifying early papyri readings- text quality - earl text a free text?- transmission quality- public and privat copies- textal and scribal culture- book trade in the roman empire.

TheWonderofYou

https://books.google.at/books?id=tTnRzXcVGGYC&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=P38+papyrus+michigan&source=bl&ots=iwZmJy4BMu&sig=LpSFA1rd31f4d-OlxuNUztJhuqg&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiek-eH3cvQAhVCfhoKHZKGDAgQ6AEISTAK#v=onepage&q=P38%20papyrus%20michigan&f=false

I recommend to read the introduction (free preview) at Google preview containing stuff about

- Early Text and Original Text p3
- Papyri and early text
- Classifying early papyri readings
- Text quality - earl text a free text?
- Transmission quality
- Public and privat copies
- Textal and scribal culture
- Book trade in the roman empire

This preview gives a good overview about the current expert meanings and their "classificiatons"-methods of the early text witnesses.