Posts by jeremiah18:5-10

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

jeremiah18:5-10

So you see this is not about my opinion/my personal interpretation/the WT's interpretation. That is completely irrelevant to the context that John consistently sets forth in pretty much every one of his visions. It is no different for Revelation 7. What is the setting of Revelation 7? You decide.

Exactly the point. Each has a right to interpret the scriptures for themselves with the knowledge that they will be judged accordingly ( if you believe in God and the Bible). For you, WTS or JW Facts or anyone else to presume they know all or better than anyone else is foolish. The difference is JW Facts is trying to open the door to critical thinking especially for people that have been ensnared and mislead and indoctrinated into WTS. The WTS doesn't allow such critical thinking or open debate. Any kind of self-interpretation is considered to be competitition and thus apostacy. You are coming across as if you have the answers and as a proponent of the WTS and totally discount others conclusions and interpretations.

Whether I'm right or wrong is of no relevance to you or anyone else. I'm not a follower of men anymore. Perhaps you should consider the same course.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

jeremiah18:5-10

I just read all 7 pages of comments, my head is spinning. Nevertheless, here's my two cents. The "setting" of any and all of the visions is one and the same in the entire book of Revelation- on earth near Patmos, as all settings are related and from the viewpoint of John.

Since the book of Revelation is not presented or recorded/compiled in chronological order of fulfillment, the "setting" of fulfillments of visions is difficult to determine since many accouunts parallel and retell other accounts.

You keep hammering on the "setting" of Revelation 7, which setting are you referring to, the fulfillment or where John is? Either way its a vision and admittedly John never leaves earth, correct? Any attempt to make definitive and conclusive statements otherwise is a leap based solely on personal opinion, preference, and agenda, as no one can confirm that these events ever happened [the visions to John or the fulfillments of the prophecies]

Therefore your arguments all depend on YOUR supposition and assumption that YOUR faith is correct, conclusive, and accurate. The entire point of sites like JWFacts, as I understand it is to establish that there are no 100% correct, conclusive, and accurate statements to be held to or that can be proven. All religious views and dogma are rooted in faith [the unprovable-Heb 11:1] and even then its the subjective to the faith of the beholder.

So the point is faith is deeply personal and NO human or organization can conclusively claim or prove their authority or their views without relying on the person being willing to surrender their views and accept the views of the person they are listening to.

I for one only use sites like this and JWFacts as a way to gain insight into the views of others and to balance my views, not to form my foundation of my faith. For me my faith has to be rooted solely on the Bible and the way I personally read it and comprehend it, knowing that God will be evaluating me based on MY thoughts, beliefs and actions, not those of others.

Not sure how much this really contributes to the discussion, but just wanted to contribute to the discussion.

5

The Waterboy's Mom Was A Witness!!

by worldlygirl in

jw
friends

did any of you ever see the waterboy with adam sadler and kathy bates?

i know it's an old movie, but i was watching it with my kids and i had to laugh aloud.

kathy bates plays the cajun mom of the mentally borderline bobby boucher, and i just know she was a witness!!!

jeremiah18:5-10

I watched this the other day and was thinking the exact same thing. I may watch it again with that in mind just for the kicks of it. Great observation!

46

A poignant comment on JWsurvey.org from a nonJW regarding Sparlock

by cedars in

i woke up this morning to find the following comment had been left on jwsurvey.org on my article entitled "watchtower's new 'toy story' - what parents need to know".

it read as follows.... .

my grandson, who is 3, was telling me magic is bad several times a day.

jeremiah18:5-10

What an interesting dilemma. Careful not to be hypocritical. Many posters on this site villify JW family members that presume to override parental upbringing by non-JW parents of their children and who try to "indoctrinate" those children with "the truth". In reality these JW family members are doing what they truly feel to be right and moral in their heart. The same applies in the reverse case as outlined here.

Both sets of situations involve a non-parent family member seeing the child "being endangered" as if they were about to run out in the street for a ball. In such a case, your expectation would be that someone care enough to keep the child out of harms way.

It seems to me that in this particular situation that the grandparent has to respect the parents right and responsibility to raise their child as they see fit, as long as imminent abuse is not occuring (I know that many feel JW indoctrination qualifies). The grandparent should simply attempt to reason with the child and parent without creating conflict and imposing their own beliefs on their families thus attempting to indoctrinate them in their beliefs, just as we would hope that the JW doesn't attempt to indoctrinate us.

Respect for personal beliefs is sacred. Children are completely et the mercy of the environment of their upbringing and the teachings they hear, see, and are taught. Their belief system will be formed around this. The best case scenario for any child is to be provided with a well-rounded balanced presentation of facts and viewpoints, and encouraged to decide accordingly as they grow up.

In any case a parent has the unique right and responsibility to raise their child and teach their child as they see fit. There is no getting around that fact.

52

Born-ins (childhood memories)

by tornapart in

as a born in, or in at a very young age, what were your worst memories as a young jw child?.

i remember not being allowed to go to sleep in the meetings when i was tired.

not being allowed to do lots of things at school other kids could do.

jeremiah18:5-10

Most are from school years:

Having to sit in the hallway during holiday parties in class and having to say "that's against my religion"

Having to sit in the principal's office during pep rallys

Having to stay seated during the national anthem when at a Houston Astros game when 30,000 people are all standing and then hearing ridicule the rest of the game

Being scared to death to talk to "worldly girls" for fear of what to say and what to do even if I hit it off with them, where go, what do, girlfriends weren't allowed

Going in service on Thursday or Friday afternoon at the DC instead of getting to go back to the hotel to swim

Spanknings for every little thing done wrong

The worst memory: Being asked to spy on my older brother to see if he was masturbating and then having to tell on him. Then having to listen to him get the crap beat out of him when he was. Sick, sick, sick as shit!!!

68

spirituality and religion - what are the differences?

by soft+gentle in

trying to understand the differences.

started this topic on the xjwsforchrist forum as well and would like to ask jwn posters the same question.

jeremiah18:5-10

I recently read on another site an illustration of the difference between the physical man and the spiritual man which may fit this. They illustrated it as a physical man focuses on the artwork, a spiritual man the artist, a physical man focuses on the building a spiritual man the builder.

" One thing we know about a spiritual examination is that it is different from a physical examination. In other words, whereas a physical examination requires the use of the five senses, a spiritual examination does not. A physical examination can only take you so far because it is dependent on there being tangible things to examine. A spiritual examination begins where a physical examination leaves off because it is not examining tangible things at all.

An illustration might better explain the difference. A physical examination looks at the art; a spiritual examination looks at the artist. A physical examination looks at the science; a spiritual examination looks at the scientist. A physical examination looks at the building; a spiritual examination looks at the builder. In each instance, the physical examination looks only to the results; whereas the spiritual examination looks to the source, the meaning, the value."

I don't know if that applies at all to your question, but it's an interesting musing nonetheless.

30

Why wasn't the Issue of Universal Sovereignty raised amongst the angels long before Adam and Eve

by yadda yadda 2 in

if there were millions of angels in existence long before adam and eve were created, how come god's sovereignty wasn't challenged in heaven long before the garden of eden?

why did this so-called issue only begin when adam and eve appeared?

how could there not be a single rebellious angel before the appearance of humans?

jeremiah18:5-10

I've pondered this topic for a while now. I could believe it did occur prior to Adam and Eve. I can't prove it scripturally of course. It seems to me that it would fit better with scripture though if it did happen that way and if earth and humans were specifically created as a "proving" ground to establish it. It could be that the "test" is to see if creatures that couldn't see God would choose to submit to Him. Then those who did could be "promoted" to heavenly life. The others, well, guess they're just SOL. Of course that doesn't mesh with the idea of Jehovah being a "God of Love". Of course why does that matter if life here was just to serve the sole purpose of resolving the issue. It would be consistent with "the earth not being created to totter". The earth would serve its purpose as a proving ground and then no need for it anymore. Kind of a morbid thought though and this has held me back from fully buying in to it.

86

A little example of how severely the contributions for the Society are drying up

by sir82 in

jw
friends

just a little tidbit from the congregation i attend..... the congregation has approximately 120 publishers.. well over 1000 magazines per month are picked up, not to mention all the books, brochures, and tracts that are picked up.. there was a "local needs" part on the service meeting recently, asking for more contributions.. it seems our congregation has averaged just about $300 per month contributions to the "worldwide work" over the past year.. .

assuming 1500 magazines / month, that's just 20 cents per magazine - and that completely ignores all other literature that is picked up.. the last price the magazines had, 20+ years ago, was 25 cents per issue.

with inflation that would have been about 50 cents each now.. just another sign of how severely the contriutions to the society are drying up..... .

jeremiah18:5-10

When I was in, the contributions for "Local Expenses" was usually twice as much as donations for the "Worldwide Work" donations to the "KH Fund" were always under $100 a month. About every 6 months the Local account would build up to a level that the body would make a motion to send a couple thousand to the WW Work. I didn't realize it then, but that seems to be a clear indication of the "friends" being de-sensitized to the "spirit-directed organization". Kinda funny really.

On a side note, in the area I lived there were about 10 KH's with about 20 cong's within a 30 mile radius. The CO came through and said the Society wanted us to poll our money together and help each other pay off their KH's. Our KH was paid for and he "suggested" that we settle on a dollar amount/publisher and contribute monthly toward paying off a neighboring KH. This ruffled feathers on the body to say the least. Of course that was only evident after the CO left. No elder spoke up during the meeting, only complained afterwards.

Shortly thereafter another 3-4 KH's were built in the area and the RBC was always coming around making plans for renovations, whatever they recommended was always done, with a loan from the WTS of course.

82

Is the Governing Body EVIL or IGNORANT?

by cedars in

some of you will have noticed that i've been paying a lot of attention to the governing body recently.

this is because most jehovah's witnesses venerate them collectively (even if they can't name them individually), and i feel this makes it important to understand this group of men properly and expose their mindset as individuals.

as the saying goes, i feel it's important to "know your enemy".. i realize it's very convenient to think of the governing body as being "evil" when we consider that they are ultimately responsible for all the damaging jw teachings and beliefs.

jeremiah18:5-10

Millions of JW's around the world are ignorant because of the staunch position and doctrine enforced by the GB.

Those serving on the GB no doubt were ignorant prior to their appointment. But once being appointed they no longer get the luxury of being ignorant. Now they are holding the lives of 7 million JW's and according to their doctrine, billions of lives in their hands.

Being the self-appointed sole channel of communication with God puts them in an obligatory position to thoroughly search the scriptures with humility and honesty. They should be praying incessantly to be guided by HS and then seeking to follow its leadings through the pages of the Bible to find answers. Anything short of that is EVIL on their part.

Their rigid steadfastness and loyalty to the "traditional" WTS doctrines and an unwillingness to search the scriptures with an open mind qualifies them as Evil not Ignorant.

They demonstrate the ability to search the scriptures and to comprehend them when it suits their purpose, thus they are not ignorant of how to do it. They are resistant to the idea that they could be wrong and might lose their authority and power if they admit to it.

Ignorance is the lack of knowing how to do something or having knowledge of a given matter. There is no way you can convince me that they are not exposed to other views, even the views on this sight. Instead they give no consideration to being fallible and again this makes them Evil.

1

ex-pro athletes=ex-jws

by jeremiah18:5-10 in

jw
friends

i listen to espn radio a lot (my job is a travelling job in my vehicle alot).

i was listening recently to the sportscasters talk about the struggle pro-athletes have adjusting after their playing days are over.

they go from millionaires to broke so quickly.

jeremiah18:5-10

I listen to espn radio a lot (my job is a travelling job in my vehicle alot). I was listening recently to the sportscasters talk about the struggle pro-athletes have adjusting after their playing days are over. They go from millionaires to broke so quickly. Why? Because most of them failed to plan for the future, adjust their lifestyles, or failed to have a marketable skill to use upon their exit. Thus many hold on as long as they can, scared to face the future beyond the field of play.

As an ex-jw myself, I can totally relate to this. I was rasied as a JW and upon being out of it, I've struggled to adjust socially and to reconcile long-held beliefs. Many of the same reasons apply.

Have you seen this to be true in your case?