00DAD- very good points, I had not thought about this before. It's remarkable how close-minded all of are by nature. At the same time, opening our minds up is so liberating, while also scary, since you risk losing grip on the only reality you know. Geez so many things aboout religion, specifically JW's are eerily similar to the concepts contained in the Matrix!
jeremiah18:5-10
JoinedPosts by jeremiah18:5-10
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Agents of Reality came knocking on my door today ...
by 00DAD intwo agents of reality came by my house this morning.
no, i'm not talking about jehovah's witnesses.
those are agents of unreality in case you're unclear on the subject!
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They want it both ways
by jeremiah18:5-10 inseveral years ago the wts stopped announcing individuals who were df'd as, "so-and-so has been disfellowshipped" and instead began announcing, "so-and-so is no longer one of jehovah's witnesses".
this seems to be rather important to me.
undoubtedly this change was fueled by legal issues raised by someone who was df'd and impacted in some way perhaps financially.
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jeremiah18:5-10
Thanks for the reference Bobcat. It doesn't seem that it specifically got discussed very much in that thread aside from the fact that some are selective about their shunning.
Someone in that thread mentioned that there's a correlation between the strictness of the shunning and the closeness of the relationship prior to the DFing. I think thats probably true.
When my older brother was DF'd [for 15+years] he was in and out of jail from the time he was 20 until he was 42, my parents always maintained contact and would help him as much as they could anytime he was out. Although this help always came with conditions and was a way to try and hold him hostage and force his "return".
With myself, a JW parents' wet dream most of my life, I apparently so broke their hearts with my fall from grace that they just can't stomach the thought of interaction. It seems they have a significant double-standard and it would drive me nuts if I hadn't emotionally cut them off. Doing this allows me to function w/o depression, but clearly it also robs me, my wife, and especially our kids of a relationship that is normal, natural, and essential to life.
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They want it both ways
by jeremiah18:5-10 inseveral years ago the wts stopped announcing individuals who were df'd as, "so-and-so has been disfellowshipped" and instead began announcing, "so-and-so is no longer one of jehovah's witnesses".
this seems to be rather important to me.
undoubtedly this change was fueled by legal issues raised by someone who was df'd and impacted in some way perhaps financially.
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jeremiah18:5-10
More specifically, if the former or current elders on this site who were serving as elders at the time of this change, could shed light on when this announcement change occurred and whether it was accompanied with an explanation and whether it seemed to be significant to you at the time.
I can't remember who the former elders are but I think, 00DAD, JWfacts, Atlantis, EE, I know there are more, but if you guys recall anything, could you enlighten me?
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They want it both ways
by jeremiah18:5-10 inseveral years ago the wts stopped announcing individuals who were df'd as, "so-and-so has been disfellowshipped" and instead began announcing, "so-and-so is no longer one of jehovah's witnesses".
this seems to be rather important to me.
undoubtedly this change was fueled by legal issues raised by someone who was df'd and impacted in some way perhaps financially.
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jeremiah18:5-10
Yes I read the quote in the Shepherd book, but my thought was that this surely was a significant change when it happened. I was appointed an elder shortly after a revision to the "elder book" and never saw the one before it. Now the book has been revised again. I would think that some explanation would have been given to the elders, either by letter or at a KM school.
My reason for wanting to know is because I'm contemplating using this reasoning with both my parents and my wifes' parents. Of course if I were to use it, most likely they would be close-minded and not listen or reason on it.
It just seems to be worth reasoning on and discussing a little.
I realize that most JW's don't care about a difference or at least don't stop to think about it. Many with DF'd family members might actually care about it and perhaps would love to find an excuse to be able to treat ones like myself differently. Perhaps it would ease their conscience on the matter somewhat.
Then again perhaps I'm delusional and am just experiencing wishful-thinking LOL.
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They want it both ways
by jeremiah18:5-10 inseveral years ago the wts stopped announcing individuals who were df'd as, "so-and-so has been disfellowshipped" and instead began announcing, "so-and-so is no longer one of jehovah's witnesses".
this seems to be rather important to me.
undoubtedly this change was fueled by legal issues raised by someone who was df'd and impacted in some way perhaps financially.
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jeremiah18:5-10
Several years ago the WTS stopped announcing individuals who were DF'd as, "so-and-so has been disfellowshipped" and instead began announcing, "so-and-so is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses"
This seems to be rather important to me. Undoubtedly this change was fueled by legal issues raised by someone who was DF'd and impacted in some way perhaps financially. I cannot locate any specific reference in LTBOE's outlining specific reasons for the change, if someone can direct me to such, I would appreciate it.
It seems to me that this more generic announcement is to disguise or even water-down what has happened and to somehow reduce liability. However, the effect is still the same-ostracism. The elders and the publishers all consider it the same and treat the person who is "no longer one of JW's" the same.
It seems to me that there is a significant difference between being a DF'd witness and "no longer one of JW's"
A DF'd Witness is being "disciplined" with some hope of return. A person "no longer one of JW's" is out from under their "umbrella of authority" and should be treated as any other "worldly" person.
Am I way off here? Is this really insignificant?
As a DF'd person with many family members still in, obviously it matters to me personally. My announcement was "no longer one of JW's". It seems to me that the WTS wants it both ways and, as with all things, the "flock" doesn't get the difference.
Perhaps this has been covered in a topic previously, if so I would appreciate being directed to it. I also would appreciate some dialouge on this if you good people wouldn't mind too much.
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jeremiah18:5-10
I am 41, my wife [Enlightened Ephesian] is 43.
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Poll---How Many Are Facebook Users & On Average How Often Are You On That Site?
by minimus ini have facebook.
i probably get on it 4 or 5 days a week, typically to see what's going on with family and those i know.
plus pictures!.
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jeremiah18:5-10
I'm on facebook a couple of times daily via my phone. Like to keep track of my friends and family. I've finally weeded out all of my former jw friends.
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A thought experiment about what it means "to be" GOD
by Terry inall believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.
go back one step.
what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .
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jeremiah18:5-10
Prologos: I believe you got the entire gist of what I was saying. It is kind of a cool thought to ponder.
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143
A thought experiment about what it means "to be" GOD
by Terry inall believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.
go back one step.
what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .
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jeremiah18:5-10
I just read all 7 pages from beginning to end (whew!!!). While I'm intimidated by the incredible knowledge and deep thoughts of many of you, I'm going to go ahead and throw in my 2 cents (two coins of very little value).
It seems to me that all of this discussion revolves around what existed at the beginning?
The premise is that God has no beginning, while all other things do have a beginning. Everything we know has a beginning and end. Without a beginning and an end, our lives are quite meaningless and without point.
We tend to associate all "things" with this linear type of thinking. That's all I'm personally capable of.
So if all "things" and time have a beginning but God does not, then at some point there was only God existing in a vacuum alone (whether part of a triune godhead or not). So that begs the questions why did he see the need to create anything? What did he create these things out of? It also lends credence to the OP's original musings of His relative knowledge, love, wisdom, and power.
If God has a beginning, then who began Him?
I'm not sure our brains are capable of conceiving beyond the rational linear thinking, putting aside concepts of beginning and end.
There are so many implications to these ponderings. If God does exist and had no beginning then created the vast universe and created life on this tiny speck of a planet, why would we conclude that we are anything more than a "hobby" a form of entertainment to God or an experiment? I liken it to a scientist who starts out with a hypothesis and then begins an experiment with various control samples and variables and seeks answers. His premise in the beginning is a desire to succeed but expects failure. Its from these failures that he takes notes and makes improvements. The aim is to gain as much knowledge as possible, to amass information. Perhaps that all we are to God. He steps away to observe how other experiments and studies are doing and then check back from time-to-time, adding different variables to the equation to see what will happen. I could see us as nothing more than a source of entertainment and an experimant, perhaps not the first of this kind.
On the otherhand, if God does not exist, the ponderings are truly beyond grasp yet they are also without limitation, making anything eventually possible and humans as potential masters of the universe as the only known thinking and devising creatures with an actual concept of time.
I hope I'm not off topic, I kind of get on a run and tyoe and think at the same time. Be gentle in your replies, I'm truly a babe in scientific matters and philosophy as well. But this topic so intrigues me I don't want it to end.
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A rumor has it....
by jeremiah18:5-10 inacoording to this letter to the society posted on anoitedjw (i realize some here do not hold it in high regard) the wts has not had any articles about the memorial or any mention of jesus in articles leading up to the memorial (public version).
instead 2-3 articles on moses and one on judas.
also rumor has it that the wts will no longer be posting the amount of partakers, (perhaps for fear of how many are going to begin partaking?!?).
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jeremiah18:5-10
I see. That's cool and true. Thanks for clarifying. Although I was hoping for some facts to clear up speculation as far as the WT articles go.
Guess I will try and search to find them, I was trying to take the lazy way out by asking for people who are still in to confirm or deny. LOL