H'lo, Jan:
You may be right, I don't know the source of your statistics. I can only say those numbers do not seem to be reflected in these forums.
Posts by ros
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108What drives exJWs to atheism?
by ros ina significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.
most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.
they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?
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108
What drives exJWs to atheism?
by ros ina significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.
most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.
they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?
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ros
rem:
You're not being honest with yourself if you kid yourself that you only believe in what is "logical"--religion aside.
You would be limiting yourself tremendously if you only allowed yourself to believe "logic". The "best things in life" are not logic. -
108
What drives exJWs to atheism?
by ros ina significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.
most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.
they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?
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ros
proplog2:
I have no quarrel (or debate) with you arriving at your conclusion, nor with your difference of opinion about evangelicals. I will just point out that logic does not necessarily equal fact. Logic, in of itself, can be flawed. In that sense, it is sometimes its own brand of "faith".
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108
What drives exJWs to atheism?
by ros ina significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.
most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.
they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?
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ros
A significant number of former Jehovah's Witnesses come out of the Watchtower still believing the Bible and considering themselves Christians. Most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship. They seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.
What is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism? I realize the answer is varied among individuals and is the perceived logical conclusion derived by a few. But the ONE influencing factor that I have observed to reign supreme over the years, the one at the forefront of driving exJWs away from wanting anything to do with religion, is the convergence on us by never-been-a-JW-"bornagain" evangelicals driven by a schizoid holyspirit mission to preach to exJWs. Why there are so many of them is a mystery. They have been at every one of our conferences, in every xJW forum and on every xJW board, usually in teams, preaching their blind literalistic dogma that makes Jehovah's Witnesses seem mild and rather cognizant by comparison. No doubt these efforts have made a few converts, but by in large the majority of exWitnesses are repelled.
I have no argument with evangelicals having and enjoying their faith. I was a evangelical before I became a JW (for which I am immensely grateful because I was not susceptible when I came out of the Watchtower). Indeed, one of the things that drew me to the Watchtower was the fact that the religion made more sense than fundamentalism. Flawed as WT so-called Biblical intellectualism was, I still consider it was a step up religiously speaking. (Independent-thinking was the next progressive step, and coming out of JWs was the next.)
Some people never tire of debating with trinitarians who never tire of debating. For those who do tire, trust me in this: You get nowhere trying to reason with them. Give up! If you like debating with them fine, to each his/her own; but if you don't, the best thing is to ignore them. You will not change their mind by proving them wrong--they won't see it. As long as you banter with them, they will thrive.
I would like lurking JWs and others to realize--regardless of your own convictions--that these people do NOT represent the Biblical premise of all Christians. To JWs entertaining doubts, that kind of Christianity is NOT the only alternative!
(It goes without saying that some people here do not agree with MY religious convictions either. But I do not impose my convictions on other people. I acknowledge my faith if the discussion warrants it, but I do not hammer it. To my knowledge, I don't know that my beliefs have influenced anyone to lose faith; in fact, the reverse here and there.) -
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Am I Codependent ? Now I'm a Bully?
by Jang ina couple of people have claimed i am co-dependent ..... a few years back i had to go through this list and do the following: .
codependents frequently:.
codependents frequently:.
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ros
Also a very astute point, Tina. VERY true. Human nature. (Why does that term always imply a negative connotation?)
(I've even noticed the tendancy in myself on occasion. ) -
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Am I Codependent ? Now I'm a Bully?
by Jang ina couple of people have claimed i am co-dependent ..... a few years back i had to go through this list and do the following: .
codependents frequently:.
codependents frequently:.
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ros
There are two complementary dysfunctional personalities in a co-dependent relationship. Maybe I missed it, but I think this self-test alludes to only one of them--the "enabler" half of a co-dependent relationship. What might be a test for the other half--the "controller" dependent?
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272
McVeigh vs Death Penalty
by Amazing ini am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.
i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.
and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.
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ros
To Expatbrit:
Then perhaps the US system of incarceration needs work?
An understated indisputable fact if there ever was one! Bingooooo!
Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7 -
272
McVeigh vs Death Penalty
by Amazing ini am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.
i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.
and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.
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ros
Hello, Expatbrit:
As for killing for ones country. If it is necessary in the last resort to do so to protect your country against aggression and pillage by another state, then imo, it is justified as self defence in extremis.
Religion is not the only thing that brainwashes. It has a way to go to catch up with nationalism.
In war you may be killing decent people with families, not sadist killers.This is not an applicable parrallel to the McVeigh situation however, or to the death sentence in general, since criminals are no longer a threat to the security of the state or it's inhabitants at the time they are sentenced to death.
Balony! Even most first-degree murderers can apply for paro--and can be granted it-- after a mere 7 years in the US. Read COMF's post about prisoner's on the first or second page.Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7 -
272
McVeigh vs Death Penalty
by Amazing ini am a policitcal conservative, at least a fiscal conservative and sociel moderate.
i support the death penalty, but i agree that our judicial system needs to overhaul how wwe treat criminals to achieve better rehabilitation results.
and of course, withhold the death penalty in cases where there could be doubt.. in mcveigh's case, i believe that he deserves the death penalty.
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ros
Dear Englishman:
This will probably be my last post on this thread, because these social issues are like trinitarian debates, they go round and round and accomplish little.It does seem that the more fundamentalist a society is in terms of its religion the more vigorously it enforces 'punishment' for breaking that society's laws e.g. capital punishment.
How nice for criminals.A more liberal and less fundamentalist society tends to be more tolerant and recognises individuality and diversity. These societies are usually 'softer' in their treatment of criminals.
Let us assume for this topic that your observation is correct about the U.S. being more "fundamentalist" than other societies; therefore relating "fundamentalism" to "capital punishment".
Would it likewise be fair to relate a nation's "fundamentalism" to its scientific and academic achievements?So, why is this? It could be because religious fundamentalism demands a mental and emotional rigidity that requires regulated and obedient behaviour from everyone. People who do not follow a rigid religious doctrine have the capacity to believe people can change and would rather educate than punish. They would rather that people saw the sense in following laws than instil fear or social retribution e.g. capital punishment.
You're right. If a sane human being of normal intelligence does not intuitively understand why they should not murder, torture, rape, or otherwise brutalize other people, I personally don't see how leniency would educate them, or what the redeeming value would be for the effort--especially from the perspective on non-religious thinkers.When I hear that religions condone capital punishment I question whether they are really serving their God or whether they are merely aligning with social leaders to control their society. Marx may have had a point. Religious organisations are more to do with man and power here on earth than with spiritual issues. The Bible I know is full of contradictions, but few Christians would disagree that love and forgiveness is an overriding theme. Capital punishment is unforgiving, it is judgemental, it is final, and it is about man - not God.
Well, I can agree with you on this one, Englishman, up to a point. However, its my impression that most religions, and in fact many of the religious people I know, oppose capital punishment. I admit that the ONLY justification I can think of for not imposing capital punishment for guilt-proven sadistic murderers is if one believes that it gives the killer a chance to "repent and get saved", believing that is the will of God. In fact, if I were not religious, I would probably be or support vigilantism. The compassion of non-religious people toward these beasts baffles me.You still haven't responded to my question about killing for your country (war).
Ros
"A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7 -
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murder letter
by silentlambs inlets dance, we have added "wt letters" section to the website.
it will offer a new letter each week added to a list with an introduction.
read the introduction, click to view the letter and see if it answers the questions.
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ros
Hello, Silentlambs:
I join with others applauding your diligent efforts to expose the WT Society's practice of not allowing its members to report pedophilia and even murder to law enforement authorities. The page on your SilentLambs website for official WT letters is a great addition.
During the years I was an active JW, I was not aware of the prevalence of pedophilia within the organization. The way I initially found out about that, and the practice of congregation cover-ups for such offenders, was from some of the confessions I heard at BRCI conferences, and then later in Internet exJW discussion forums. Yet at first I thought these were isolated incidents. But since starting my own website, BEACON, I have been appalled by the sheer number of letters coming from people with stories of being horribly abused as children by their relatives and prominent elders in their congregations. Many are very much like the letters you have in the "Victims" page of your website. And yes, it is astonishing--even for the WTS--that they so dispicably protect the guilty and punish the innocent. But what I find even more incredible is the accepting indifference of the general membership of Jehovah's Witnesses toward these kinds of atrocities in their midst. That mothers have realized what was happening to their children and allowed it to go on is beyond me. This has revealed to me, above anything else, the degree to which Jehovah's Witnesses are in a duped mental state of blind submission, and it is outrageous! I have tried to think back on my years in the Watchtower wondering if I would have ever actually gone along with shielding such things. The story about people in one congregation admittedly being aware that a violent-type low-life had killed his little son and allowed it to be passed off as accidental death boggles the mind.
Another thing that occurred to me in reading the stories on your site were the instances of DFings where the offence was not made known to the congregation, and any who knew anything about it were warned to keep silent or face judicial action for "gossip". Hmmm. One of the Biblical texts most often cited by Jehovah's Witnesses to justify disfellowshipping is Jesus' instruction at Matthew 16:15-17, which verse 17 in the New World Translation reads: "If he does not listen to them ["two or three witnesses"], speak to the congregation, let him to be you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."
Does that not say the congregation is to be in formed, and allow that the wrong-doer should be turned over to the "nations"?While we on the forbidden outside may have gained some awareness, no one can expose it to the world like one such as yourself who knows the situation first-hand from the inside and is willing to come forward. If there is anything I or BEACON site can do to aid your efforts, please let me know: [email protected]
May your efforts be blessed.