Posts by doubtfull1799

18

new strategy to turn in your time in Japan

by yoko N in

jw.org stickers are passed around among publishers.one brother says "hey you can just turn in your time just driving around streets with this sticker on your car.

" the other side of this car ,(photo) there is a qr code sticker on it.. .

doubtfull1799

Nice to have someone from Japan on the forum here to give us an international flavour and perspective.

58

No more official visits to disfellowshipped & disassociated ones

by AverageJoe1 in

new letter today (please visit avoidjw.org for a copy of the official letter and yes, i also noticed they got the date wrong!).

february 28, 2017. to all bodies of elders.

re: visiting disfellowshipped or disassociated individuals.

doubtfull1799

Mmmm... the "GB has determined." So they are not claiming this is being done in response to Jehovah's direction? It is just their personal response to the matter.

If I was still an elder this would come as a great relief. My B of E were always quite diligent in following through on this and I always found these visits quite difficult and awkward.

It goes to show how little they now care about the principle Jesus gave in Like 15:4 about leaving the hundred behind to find the one lost sheep...

As one of those "lost sheep" myself, only one fellow elder has made any effort or attempt to keep in touch and try to help me. And I love and appreciate him for it because even though his efforts are misguided he is the only one of the body who has genuinely cared about our friendship enough to put doctrine aside and treat me like a human being and not as a mentally diseased person who is beyond fixing. He has also been willing to listen (without judgment) to all the problems I have highlighted with the org, without being too much of an apologist. Though still firmly committed to the org he has shown some integrity and honour which I respect. The others have virtually abandoned me after my two "offical" shepherding calls. I have not had so much as a text message from any of them in over 6 months. From these men I used to consider not only colleagues but friends.

Of course as they would point out I have not made any effort to contact them either, so it goes both ways. But According to Jesus instructions which they claim to be following it is their responsibility to reach out to me, not the other way around.

65

My Introduction - An ex-elder's story of waking up later in life.

by doubtfull1799 in

background:.

my parents got the “truth” while i was in primary school.

i was baptised at 14. i loved school and was extremely studious.

doubtfull1799

Thank you all so much for your replies and welcomes. It was really so heartwarming and I appreciate it so much. Thank you to to those who alas shared their stories and the parts of my story they could relate to - that really helped me. And for those who offered any advice - thank you, I am listening.

@wizzstick - no, I don't see any change in general. That is why I felt so alone.The only thing I see is that our congregation hasn't changed in size in decades. We have only had one baptism (from the field that is, I'm not counting born-ins) in the last decade. We only maintain numbers because people move in and out.

@smiddy - nice to meet fellow Aussies, look forward to talking more

@stuckinarut2 - thank you, yes I hope it helps the lurkers, I have been one for months until this post. And yes I have checked out jwfacts, its a great resource.

@zeb - its very interesting to search the word "evidently" in the Watchtower library, you'll be amazed at how many time it has been used just since 2000! Especially when you consider that it is just a smokescreen for the you don't actually have nay evidence. It's like when countries call themselves "the peoples democratic...." to disguise the fact they are dictatorships! Example: "The people's democratic republic of North Korea," which is neither a democracy or a republic.... hehehe

@tor1500 - thank you for your helpful perspective, much appreciated

@careful - indeed, its symbolic for me of how people of every generation have interpreted the sign a applying to themselves. It shows that the sign is too vague and virtually useless as a tool to identify any time period. Its no better than a horoscope. Its like 2 Tim 3:1-5. The question always asked is: "do you see these things happening now?" but that is the wrong question. The question should be: "Has there ever been time when these things weren't happening?"

@vanderhoven7 - not really, I have not ruled out the possibility of a supernatural deity, I'm open minded about it, but critical analysis of the Bible leads me to the strong conclusion that it is not of divine origin, the same critical analysis that led me to believe the same of the GB. I would need some pretty amazing evidence that would stand up to critical scrutiny to go back to believing in a personal God.

@Ding - I read the Finished Mystery because I wanted to see for myself what "light" we had in 1919 when we were supposedly selected by Jesus. Of course all we had was darkness! This led me into further research on our origins, tracing the Millerite and adventist movements and their influence on Russell etc.

@Blondie - enjoy reading your posts

@flipper - thanks, have certainly done that! As well as Bonnie's book.

@fredpilltwice - like your username too. Love the matrix. I actually asked my brother would he like the blue pill or red pill to save if I could talk to him. At the moment he prefers to live in the Matrix, but I think he is curious.

@giordano - thanks for your thoughts and perspectives, much appreciated

@Still Totally ADD - yes, what took us so long! Just shows how effective indoctrination is if done from an early age

@yoko N - thank you for sharing further afield, I hope it helps the Japanese brothers.

@EdenOne - appreciate your thoughts

@darknight757 - thank you, yes I will.

@Gorbatchov - well done. I would like to go back and get the education I missed, but not sure I have the energy and drive to do it now, we'll see....

@James Jack - I'm sure you will be hearing more from me on that front...

12

Thank you so much - I am really touched

by doubtfull1799 in

just wanted to thank everyone so much for all your responses to my first post.

i am overwhelmed by all the replies and supportive comments that came through overnight while i was asleep here in aussie land!.

i will absolutely endeavour to reply to each one individually but it will take some time as there are a lot to go through.

doubtfull1799

Yes I am an Aussie!

@Onager - yes that's what I fear, I'm hoping for an exception to the rule...

@freddo - no it was hardly discussed here at all. A few publishers and Elders watched it but whitewashed it, claimed the brothers gave a great defence. The body of elders basically had a local needs part about being careful not to believe what you hear in the media - that was the only response, to warn people not to believe anything they hear about it!

39

June 2017 Watchtower - Jehovah's Sovereignty is at stake if you disagree with us

by Listener in

four years ago the watchtower made the following demand.

all of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.

they are not content with obedience and in the upcoming june watchtower they have this to say -15. how does respect for theocratic headship reveal our love for jehovah’s way of ruling?15 what is our response to divinely authorized headship?

doubtfull1799

Some core problems with that whole Watchtower as I see them:

1. There is no reason why the issue should still be in existence, particularly the part about mans loyalty to God. If you take the Scientific principle of falsification, then you only need one example to prove a theory wrong. If Satan challenged that NO-ONE would worship God under test then one example, Job, was all that was needed to disprove that. Issue settled, lets move on! If we needed a perfect man, then Jesus proved it wrong. Issue done and dusted. Why another 2,000 years and thousands more cased needed? They are not.

2. The whole concept of Sovereignty issue more important than personal salvation thing suggests God is a selfish being, more concerned with his own problems than his children's. If God truly lives by his own principles, such as "be more interested in serving the needs of others than your own" then surely it should be the other way around?

3. They are claiming a divine appointment they have admitted they do not have. In the recent doctrinal changes it was stated that the F&DS do not receive their appointment over the Masters belongings until the Great Tribulation, a future event. So for the time being they have only been authorised to "feed" the household, they have not been authorised or appointed to "direct" the household. So they are acting presumptuously, the very sin they claim to hate, the most in asking us to obey this divine authority.

21

Becoming the average JW (and what I found out about the average 'Joe Witness')

by Skepsis in

jw
friends

until a couple of months ago i was an uber-spiritual pioneer, only having association with other pioneers, elders and others who would fill in the category i classified as "spiritually acceptable" friends.. but since stopping pioneering and having more time to think about my doubts and what i really believe (or better said, what i no longer believe), i have started getting to know other less spiritual brothers and sisters of the area.

in fact, my old friends are starting to forget me quite quickly, i must say.

so, i guess my next move in fading is becoming what i call the average witness.. and what did i discover?

doubtfull1799

Good post. I have thought along similar lines looking back. As an elder/pioneer etc I was a always so frustrated why I wasn't able to help so many become more "solid in the truth." I couldn't understand why brothers weren't "reaching our" etc. Now, looking back, I wonder how many of those were not happy or didn't believe anymore, were just trying to "fade" but couldn't stop completely due to family, and were just keeping up appearances etc etc. Now I'm starting to think - a lot!

3

Hyperlinks to bookmarks in PDF doc don't work

by FatFreek 2005 in

one of my topics re "watchtower's 53 date failures ..." has a problem.. the document that delivers all that content is in pdf format.

the internal hyperlinks to the bookmarks don't work.

it's not your fault -- it's mine.. see all those dates in that table on page 3?

doubtfull1799

Thanks for posting - a very useful resource.

7

MOVIE REVIEW; SILENCE (A story about Faith, Martyrs, Apostates, and Stupidity)

by TerryWalstrom in

jw
friends

silence (movie review)_________.

unless you are a catholic, ex-catholic, an evangelical christian, or a total apostate to your former religion or church--this film is not for you!_____.

martin scorsese has wrought a filmwhich no 2 eyes will see in the same way.. on the surface, it is about the clash (the push back against christianity and priests by buddhists and officials particularly in nagasaki) resulting from catholic evangelism inside japan.

doubtfull1799

Thanks for the review, looking forward to seeing it...

12

Thank you so much - I am really touched

by doubtfull1799 in

just wanted to thank everyone so much for all your responses to my first post.

i am overwhelmed by all the replies and supportive comments that came through overnight while i was asleep here in aussie land!.

i will absolutely endeavour to reply to each one individually but it will take some time as there are a lot to go through.

doubtfull1799

Just wanted to thank everyone so much for all your responses to my first post. I am overwhelmed by all the replies and supportive comments that came through overnight while I was asleep here in Aussie land!

I will absolutely endeavour to reply to each one individually but it will take some time as there are a lot to go through. I look forward to further correspondence with each of you on the topics you have raised and the questions you have asked. In the meantime just wanted to make some quick comments on a couple of common themes that came through in your replies:

1. I have listened carefully to the many comments that have advised against dissociating. I will take these on board and think further on the matter before making any hasty decisions. It is a hard one for me. I understand the point about not playing by their rules and I certainly appreciate the severe consequences as yes, ALL my social circle are currently “in.” However, on the other had, I also feel that I am compromising my integrity by not doing it. And at the end of the day I value my integrity more than I care about the personal consequences. With the exception of my wife of course, and she has promised to stick by me and respect (despite not supporting) my decision, whichever way I go. Most of my friends are only friends because of our common spiritual heritage, they are not normally persons I would have much in common with outside the organisation. There are a few special and close friends though that are exceptions to that rule that I hope will be loyal to our friendship, but that of course remains to be seen. And from the experience of others I have read about it is likely they will not survive if I formally disassociate. On a side not, I was thinking of just doing it verbally instead of writing a letter as G.Jackson indicated in his testimony any the ARC that one didn't need to go through a formal process and suffer the consequences that process implies - I thought I might test that theory!

2. A coupe asks about the writing. I will share some more experiences down the track but just wanted to clear up that I have never been a Bethelite or worked at headquarters. Select branches have a writing desk/department that contributes to the head office writing department. I worked under the writing desk of the Australian branch office, which doe snot actually require one to be at Bethel. There are many researchers and writers in many branches that contribute to articles or even come up with ideas for articles. I will explain the process another time.

3. I don’t know if I will publish my manifesto here when it is complete as it is really just a personal compilation and interpretation of material already covered by many others before me. I have certainly gone through jwfacts, Penton, Gruss etc and many others. I think Lloyd Evans has already written more comprehensively than I will be on all these subjects and am looking forward to reading his book. But I may share specific parts of it as I continue to contribute more to these boards in time as particular subjects come up.

65

My Introduction - An ex-elder's story of waking up later in life.

by doubtfull1799 in

background:.

my parents got the “truth” while i was in primary school.

i was baptised at 14. i loved school and was extremely studious.

doubtfull1799

Background:

My parents got the “truth” while I was in primary school. I was baptised at 14. I loved school and was extremely studious. Achieved a very high Tertiary entrance score (what you in the US call a GPA I think?) and could have pursued virtually any career, but gave it up to start pioneering and commence my theocratic career at 18. Pretty boring growing up story - never got into any trouble in my youth - was always very serious and very focused on the “truth.” Always did the right things and was very serious. Never smoked, never touched alcohol etc… lived a model witness life and was very zealous.

Some theocratic highlights:

Served as a pioneer for over 15 years years.

Served as an Elder for nearly 20 years.

Worked with the writing department for a few years, mainly as a researcher but also had a number of articles published.

Speaker at Circuit and District convention level for last 15 years including Elders schools.

My awakening:

For some years I had become more and more bothered by dogmatic statements appearing in Watchtower articles. They would keep using words like “evidently” without actually supplying any scriptural evidence. They would admit to making errors, say they were going to be more cautious and “discreet,” and then in the same breath/paragraph make another indiscreet and dogmatic statement without any back-up, doing exactly what they had just promised not to do. Particular examples are of course the Generation, Types/Anti-types, explanations of 10 virgins parable etc. When they moved the “appointed over all his belongings” part of the F&DS parable to the Great Tribulation, without comment on the implications, I realised they had been presumptuous this whole time claiming they had already received that appointment since 1919. They had acted with unauthorised authority over Christ's “belongings,” and were not just concerned with feeding spiritual food. Of course this was all a mute point anyway as by this time I had read the Finished Mystery book and realised there was no way Jesus would have approved of that spiritual food anyway. However I continued to loyally push these problems aside in my mind and justify everything as we’ve been trained to do!

Then a couple of situations kind of lined up at the same time to push me over the edge. Firstly, I have alway had a love of science and reason, and I always enjoyed learning more about how the brain and cognitive processes work. So at this time I came across a book called “The Art of Thinking.” I read it in one go and was blown away. It opened my eyes up to critical thinking and the whole field of cognitive/logical fallacies in ways I had never thought about or applied in my life before. Well not to my beliefs anyway. I could clearly see how people were fooled by poor reasoning and biases when it came to other religions and things like pseudo-science and superstitions. But this book got me thinking for the first time whether I was a victim of my own confirmation bias and many others in my own beliefs. I pulled on a thread - 607/1914 - and suddenly the house of cards started to collapse. I could not defend my own beliefs to myself without using a ton of assumptions and biases, especially confirmation bias. I ran this by a fellow elder and he confirmed all the assumptions so it wasn't just me.

Secondly, about the same time the Australian Royal Commission was in full swing and I watched some of the elders testimony and especially Geoffrey Jacksons testimony. As the scripture promises, “do not be afraid for what you will say in that day, as I will put words in your mouth and help you, says Jehovah.” I expected to see a great witness. What I saw instead was a very smug man doing his best to avoid answering questions directly and honestly, just like a politician. He made misleading comments and even outright lied on a couple of points. I was horrified and disturbed. Then I saw some of the other Elders lie also, or admit they had done nothing, even when they had confessions they believed and didn't need two witnesses. I could not believe it, but I had to admit I had been lied to. The “abuse problem” was not just an apostate lie or a media beat-up, it was real and we had been in denial and covering it up for years.

So now I had concerns not only about the foundation of our doctrines, but also the quality of the “spirit anointed” men that God was supposedly using who I felt could no longer be trusted. So I started to do a more earnest investigation into our history, and this time I was prepared to consider outside sources to eliminate or account for any biases. So it was at this time I dared to read “Crisis of Conscience” and “Captives of a Concept.” The documented evidence of the royal commission (showing the true state of affairs with our child abuse problem) and the documented evidence of our history and the character of the men who served as our first four presidents was overwhelming.

This was my turning point. I now realised I had been conned. I had believed in a lie. And the implications were devastating to say the least. I cried for days. For my lost hope of everlasting life. For the harsh reality of my mortality. For the years I’d wasted knocking on doors spreading false and erroneous teachings instead of living up to my potential. For all the damage I had inadvertently done, even though my intentions were good. And for all the family and friends I would potentially lose, who I would be unable to rescue. I had always suffered from depression on and off, but this spun me into a deeper, suicidal level of depression than I had ever know before, one that I am still struggling with, but am very slowly coming out of. And yes, I have been getting help with counselling etc.

Don’t get me wrong, I have had a good life, but I could have done so much more with it if I had known the real truth. I could have been a real help to people, not just pseudo help.

My current situation:

So I resigned as an Elder and left cold turkey - I haven’t been to a meeting in over 6 months (other than funerals). I just couldn't stand sitting there listening to the fallacious arguments and disinformation in nearly everything that was said. My fellow elders have been reasonable (as far as they can be within the confines of the Society) as they are a bit more liberal here than most places, but after a few shepherding calls they have basically given up on me I think. They are happy for me to fade as long as I don’t rock the boat and talk to others. So for the moment I have managed to avoid being disfellowshipped, though I do not now recognise any authority of theirs to do so anyway. During one of their calls I actually suggested to them that they should and they would have grounds to, but they refused.

My wife and family are still in and I still see some close JW friends from time to time. We keep the peace by not discussing anything at all controversial. I plan to formally disassociate from the Watchtower Society at some point in the hear future, but waiting for my wife's health to improve so that she can cope with there situation better. In the meantime, as a kind of therapeutic endeavour, I am writing a thesis based on everything I have learned so far, which will be a sort of testament or manifesto for why I have left. Hopefully those friends who really want to know will read it.

I realise my story is quite a bit different from most here, in that I have woken up quite late in life, unlike the many young ones who see sense and get out before they devote their life to the org. However, my long time in the “truth” probably also gives me a different perspective that may be useful in helping others. So happy to answer any questions - AMA!