Posts by tor1500

95

Who can explain why the "Two Witness" rule is wrong, in the simplest term?

by DATA-DOG in

with all the legalese being tossed around, and the expert manipulation on the part of the wtbts, who can explain why the "two witness" is being perverted by the wtbts?

i don't care if you're a bible believer and want to approach this from a biblical standpoint, or if you simply use logic and reason.

how would you explain this subject to a j-dub, or even a non-dub?.

tor1500

Hi,

What is the debate....CALL THE POLICE...

As usual I have a story...two sisters I know ok make that 3 sisters I know...experienced their child being molested...where did they go....to the brothers...at the time, I was new...so I just assumed they called the police...come to find out they are still so angry (yet still come to the meetings, etc). but angry because the brothers to this day did not do anything....it struck me strange that the brothers...I thought, what about the police...one sister told me her story....if I were her, I wouldn't have gone to the authorities either...her story was a little fishy...plus she has issues with all brothers...her hubby was no good...he was a brother too...many of the friends leave their kids with other friends, thinking it's ok...once, I was going home from a meeting...saw one of he young ones and asked where are your parent and your bros. and sisters...he said, he was the only one that came to the meeting....he lives within walking distance..anyway, I said, I'll take him home but told him to call home to let them know I was bringing him...he called no answer...and he had no cell phone either...then he had no key, we went by his house, no answer...so I took him for something to eat just to eat up time...we talked...nice young man... so I said, lets go back to your house...I think it's time...I dropped him off, & it took a long time for his family to let him in the house...so what am I saying here...many of the friends, leave their children to the friends...the parents are so darn tired, they give them up for just a chance to breathe...

Again, I'm in the hall, I see the good the bad and the ugly...yes, most of the parents keep a close look out, but parents do get tired sometimes and don't make the right choices...

Again, we know there is child abuse in the org...what's ever in the world is in places of worship...the same folks outside the church are the same folks in the church....ain't no where safe...

But again...forget about all this legal stuff....CALL THE POLICE...DARN IT...We are dancing all over the problem...child abuse is wrong...we all know that...it's a crime we all know that...

Call the police.

Tor

21

This week's wt paragraph 13 and 15 free will

by poopie in

jw
friends

does forcing people to shun other people violate free will?

tor1500

Hi,

As of all you know I'm still in...and go to the meetings...I think the flow of this WT article will be to point out not our free will but God's free will to love folks anyway, even if they don't obey him...so the same to us...so we should use our free will to freely (another operative word that will be brought out).

The org. is saying you have free will and use all the scriptures about free will...oh you have the free will to stay or go...if you stay...you must use your free will to freely, there goes that word again, follow the org. aka:Jehovah. And you know the rules...so you freely agree to them...if you go freely, we won't stop you...but if you come back we have the free will to shun you....freely, there is that word again...

You have the free will to dispute the WT and how the scriptures don't line up...but they have the free will to freely tell you, you are using your free will to dispute God...(what they don't know, we are not disputing God but the org.man).

All this new literature and free will and other stuff they say to look like they are warm and fuzzy with the congregation....the public literature, doesn't really show who the WT really is...if the Arc were to look at the public edition compared to the congregation...different info....They are trying to show that the org. don't force folks to do nothing...so if they are further investigated...they will say, see, we don't force them to say....(but in their minds they are saying, we don't force them but we scare'em to death).

I have a long time friend....she knows I'm a witness...loves me...hates the witnesses...she once asked that if a person is DF'd are they allowed to come back to the hall, I said yes, she said she heard that we don't talk to them, I said true again...then she asked do they come back even though no one speaks to them, again, confirmed, then she said/asked...so why do they come back and subject themselves to being ignored....why don't they go somewhere else...I said, many don't think there is any where else to go, so they just suck it up for various reasons...

I'm not here to judge a person of why if person is df'd or da'd comes back to the hall....this is their free will to do so...and that free will is fueled by emotions....so our feelings sometimes make us do things that to the normal person seems odd...sure the person has free will to stay or go, but what about the family attachments are they old enough to be on their own...most likely not, since most parents want their kids to full time preach yet want them out of the house too...Some of the witness parents don't teach their kids how to take care of themselves...

Anyway, this free will article is just more smoke and mirrors for the time that the walls of scrutiny of the internet or authorities close in on the org....

They are saying we have free will but use it the way we tell you to use it....

Tor

36

What is the basis for advising “Don’t pursue higher studies”?

by venus in

two elders who visited my friend last week encouraged her not to pursue higher studies.

it seems they are dishing out the same old stuff: “the end is imminent, and this is the time to do more in the service; hence don’t waste your resources on higher studies.”.

i wonder whether there was some official communiqué (something that is sent out recently like letter to the elders, or kingdom ministry article …).

tor1500

Hi,

At my KH, most of the kids go to college...some fast track courses they take...most of the congregation are minorities....got to have a degree, to even get your resume read...so education was blocked at one time for minorities...so not going to college is not an option...there was a time...minorities didn't have an opportunity to go to college....even to work at McDonald's you need a degree....

So all that to say....my congregation did not heed that one...A sister told me once that an Elder was talking about some young person going to college, but should be in full time ministry...the sister said...so why are your kids in college...crickets....

JW's just like to cry poverty...but go to their homes, see their cars...they travel....all this in secret....They love that scripture where Jesus says, I have no place to lay down...meaning he was homeless...but the JW's won't take it that far...they just give poverty lip service....

The young ones are going to college...and if this religion continues..we are going to see some changes...if you read some of the lit....you will see they are changing....at one time you could not clap once a person was re-instated...now they do...at one time couldn't pray for anyone except if they were a JW or a study...that's changed...it's all subliminal....you just have to pay attention...the old lit. the JW's never smiled....now look at the pictures...grinning from ear to ear....little tiny changes...they got a good PR person...

Tor

95

Who can explain why the "Two Witness" rule is wrong, in the simplest term?

by DATA-DOG in

with all the legalese being tossed around, and the expert manipulation on the part of the wtbts, who can explain why the "two witness" is being perverted by the wtbts?

i don't care if you're a bible believer and want to approach this from a biblical standpoint, or if you simply use logic and reason.

how would you explain this subject to a j-dub, or even a non-dub?.

tor1500

Hi,

The org. dips and dabs in the OT, when it suits them...Jesus came to abolish the law...if folks still followed the law, then there is no faith is Jesus....I really would like to be a lawyer...not a big shot, just your Joe Blow lawyer...the question to ask the org. is to get their stance... ?? Isn't that scripture in the Ot or Nt...they will say, the Hebrew scriptures (ot)...then ask....didn't Jesus say, he is the law...Most folks that don't even know the bible do know that the OT isn't supposed to be followed no more....That scripture is null and void....and they know it...they had to support what they did .......so they had to dig into their bag of tricks.....

But to be honest....if you were apart of this ARC thing, sitting there and hearing all these abuse cases and the only support the org. has is....A SCRIPTURE...a scripture to support why they didn't report these cases...If I was a judge...I really wouldn't have to hear any more...down would come my gravel.....GUILTY....

It's taking to long to get this done...imagine, you going into court....you are accused of a crime...and you plead not guilty....and say to the judge...No one witnessed the crime I did...so I plead deut. 17:6...The court would haul your behind out of their and hold you until you came up with a better excuse...something that is from the law not the bible...You can't go into court and use scriptures as your defense....maybe to support a right, but support a criminal act...

Tor

29

What's your degree of anti-JWness?

by Landy in

so, on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is absolutely pro-jw, 5 is neutral and 10 is youtubing nutjob apostate, where do you stand?.

i'm probably around a 6. i have the view that jws are a nothing marginal religion.

if i hadn't been brought up as one i doubt they would have ever entered my consciousness.. the reasons it's a 6 and not a 5 is that i have some concerns over their child baptism and safeguarding procedures, but i think it's down to them being a bit dim rather than any pro child abusing ethos.

tor1500

Hi All,

Should change my name to Two Cents Tor...

@Stan LiveDeath, so true...."Can you seriously imagine Jesus encouraging a parent to let a child die for...." This scripture comes to mind (this is for lurkers)...Luke 14:5...Which of you shall have a donkey or an oxen fall into a pit and will not pull him out on the Sabbath". Jesus example is that a life is being saved, even if it's a life of an animal...

JW's have no idea what God requires...they are so busy trying to please God, they lost the message...the heart of the matter of this Christian walk...Love God and Love others (not just JW's)...

God even said he doesn't want any more sacrifices....JW's don't realize, that the ransom is a gift...and they ain't nothing you can do to pay back...that's what they don't get...you can't pay it back...so just preach and if folks bite cool if not...don't worry...

I'm still in...love the congregation...they are all nuts, including me...but I keep my funny ways to myself....I would love to fade...not be DF'd and find a place to worship God...no matter where you go, no place of worship has the truth...they just give you pieces of the puzzle and you have to put it together yourself...So, I'm a 5...slipping into 6.

Tor

33

The reality of "shunning" and character assasination highlighted at the Australian Royal Commission

by stuckinarut2 in

once again, the arc has brilliantly highlighted the reality that any witness who either fades or disassociates is subjected to active official shunning by the organization.. the "brothers" tried to state that it was the choice of the indiviual who steps away from the organization to shun them!

they actually tried to make it out to be the fault of the one who leaves!

then they tried to say that those who fade are not shunned!.

tor1500

Hi LongHairGal,

Glad you read my comment....yep, that's how I see the org. An over confident Lover with a lot of lovers to spare, we are not dating or anything because I have new lovers now, but I'll ignore you, but you can hang around....and sadly many of the friends hang around and shunned....

I'm so sad you were treated badly in the org. and happy you got out with your mind intact.....They just wanted you to be a nobody with nothing...so they can talk about you...I'm a witness...I can tell you some stories, but since I'm in, they may be recognizable....The friends don't bother me much, I work and make a good living, but at the same time, I don't spend a lot of time with them...that's how you get in trouble...oh, yeah, they try to tell me what to do or make suggestions of how I could increase my ministry, and so on....but I just pull out a scripture to support what I can do....silence...

I found the best way to answer a witness....just like they say....let the bible speak ....& I do....

Tor

47

What do you think the Australian Government will do?

by Richard Oliver in

i am not wanting to start a fight.

i just want to hear what people think.

honestly and realistically, what do you think the australian government will do, with watchtower, when they receive the full arc report?.

tor1500

Hi,

I was thinking again, why doesn't the police just go and arrest the brothers that know about these cases as accessories to the crime...we all watch Law and Order, when the want the big boy, they arrest the little boys...

Or am I'm in la la land....

They know the org. has knowledge of these crimes....so just bring them in.....they are so big on persecution, do a drag net of brothers...the media will take pix but the headline won't be....JW persecuted for neutrality, or won't denounce their faith...no that won't be the headline....We all know what it would say...JW's in dragnet arrest for knowing of crimes ......then it'll be explained...

Don't know how the friends gonna stick their heads in the sand after that....

Tor

95

Who can explain why the "Two Witness" rule is wrong, in the simplest term?

by DATA-DOG in

with all the legalese being tossed around, and the expert manipulation on the part of the wtbts, who can explain why the "two witness" is being perverted by the wtbts?

i don't care if you're a bible believer and want to approach this from a biblical standpoint, or if you simply use logic and reason.

how would you explain this subject to a j-dub, or even a non-dub?.

tor1500

Hi,

What fool would take a witness with them to commit a crime....duh? I can see drawing up contracts and things of that nature, but to use 2 witness rule regarding rape....& The courts don't move on that alone...

These child abuse cases have been going on for quite some time now...I know the wheels turn slow, but folks have come out to accuse the WT... and still no exposure...the friends are busting at the seams because they know, but can't say anything...

The Catholic religion has been exposed...they have big backing...so much so that it was a miracle that they were even touched. There are many famous and influence Catholics, they are a rich religion with connections all over the place, yet they got exposed...oh, they fought tooth and nail like the org...but they were exposed...

2 witness rule is just a way to stall...

Tor

47

What do you think the Australian Government will do?

by Richard Oliver in

i am not wanting to start a fight.

i just want to hear what people think.

honestly and realistically, what do you think the australian government will do, with watchtower, when they receive the full arc report?.

tor1500

Hi,

I don't know the law, that well, just mostly my rights....All anyone can hope for is that it will force the org. to call the authorities....maybe it may wake up some JW's that is they should put their child before the org. Never think twice call the police...may also show the friends the org. was wrong in not reporting...

Again, don't know the law...but even if nothing comes of it... & I hope something does come out of it...that the org. is exposed, just like the Catholics...I would just like to see the arrogance kicked out of JW's that think their org. don't stink...

The org. doesn't have to be brought down, but it needs to be humbled...

Tor

33

The reality of "shunning" and character assasination highlighted at the Australian Royal Commission

by stuckinarut2 in

once again, the arc has brilliantly highlighted the reality that any witness who either fades or disassociates is subjected to active official shunning by the organization.. the "brothers" tried to state that it was the choice of the indiviual who steps away from the organization to shun them!

they actually tried to make it out to be the fault of the one who leaves!

then they tried to say that those who fade are not shunned!.

tor1500

Hi All,

Liars Liars pants on fire....tight pants that is...lol...

We are told not to talk to the DF'd person.....never saw a faded person in the congregation....in field service sometimes we knock on a door and one of the friends will say, oh that's a witness, but they haven't been to the kh for a while...if you even smile at a DF'd person and another person see's you, they come and say, oh...you're not supposed to have any contact with them....Some of the DF'd ones are young ones, in their teens....yet, they come to all the meetings and assemblies....Shunning is so wrong...when a person does something that's the time they need contact with persons...

Here's how the org. sees it....You are DF'd....it's your choice to come to the hall, you know we will ignore you...so if you are up to it....we won't stop you, come...but remember YOU WILL BE IGNORED...so don't complain if we ignore you because you know...

The org. is like a mate that don't want you no more, and told you that it's over, but you still call and he won't pick up the phone....you love that person so much, you put away your pride, because no matter what, you still want to be with them...so they say, ok, you can come around (out of pity for you), but just to be around them....and knowing they are through with you....you stick around...there is a saying...."Beat me Beat me, but don't ignore me."....

So the org. is saying.....Why do this to yourself....you did what you did and you shunned us....

Has anyone come on the stand and say exactly what goes on in the org...I have been reading this site for a while...all this legal mumbo jumbo....here's the real deal....

The org. does not report Child abuse to the authorities

The org. tells the friends not to go to the authorities...WHY?

If you do something the org. don't like, they will warn you, then depending on who you are in the congregation, they'll just leave at that....I've seen some folks that I know got a free pass and yet another person did a less of an offence...and got the book thrown at them...the friends say, well, the brothers take in consideration your attitude...if you are truly repentant then maybe just their privileges may be taken away. If you grovel like David did, they may not DF you.

You cannot question their doctrine, even if it's does not line up with the bible, you just have to wait for a new light you saw before them.....

Again, shunning is bad and some folks take it to another level....some folks are so mean they wouldn't spit on you if you were on fire....

Coming to the hall and being shunned is one thing but to be shunned in your own home and family...that's another thing...it's your choice to go to the hall and be shunned, but you have no choice if you live with a family that shuns you....that's their choice...but again, we don't know what goes on behind closed doors...

Right now I can say anything because it never happened to me...but at this moment....today...if I was Df'd or DA'd...me....I'm not going to the hall, to be rejected...well depends on what I did..most likely it would be because of the doctrine...so why go back if I don't agree...another illustration....why call a guy, that don't want me...I'm just dialing rejection...

I do get that some have no where else to go....

Again, all this legal mumbo jumbo.....shunning...doctrine, reporting hours...etc...not criminal offences...but...

NOT REPORTING CHILD ABUSE IS A CRIMINAL OFFENCE...AND TELLING SOMEONE NOT TO GO TO THE POLICE WHEN THEY KNEW OF THE CRIME...IS A CRIME TOO....

They are dancing all over the real problem...The Catholics did not get reprimanded for doctrine or excommunication, and other churchy stuff, BUT HIDING CRIMINALS WITH IN THE CHURCH TO PROTECT THEIR IMAGE...that's what they got in trouble for.

.But what most don't know....I know some folks that are DF'd and still talk to their family....and been DF'd more than once....now at the hall, the family don't talk to her but at home....I know they do...

That's what the ARC should focus on.......ask every Brother the same question every time....did you say or were you told to tell the friends not to go to the police ? That's it...if the org. gets in trouble about this and held accountable...the other stuff they do wrong will follow...

The org. has to change this....the ARC has to focus on this issue more than any other...Children's lives are at stake....

Tor