Posts by doasthouwilt

44

Miniimizing 'Punishment' - marrying a non-JW

by doasthouwilt in

i’d like to marry my best friend of 30+ years, turned ‘secret’ girlfriend of 1 ½ years who is a jehovah’s witness, born into it, baptized and an active ‘pioneer’.

our marriage would happen prior to letting any of her jw friends and cohorts know that we are together.

once married she may simply come forward and ‘admit’ or we may wait until it’s found out – one way or the other, the reason for this marriage is not customary – i am hoping that by doing so she can avoid being ‘marked’ or possibly ‘disfellowshipped’ once our relationship is no longer a secret and due to our already being married at that point, there can be no notion from society elders about her ending the relationship.

doasthouwilt

MeanMrMustard + anyone else who may have felt even slightly trolled . . .

That honestly isn't what I came here for or at all intend(ed) to do. I think some of my disposition about this and the honest facts of the story may seem ourageous and even be upsetting to some, especially anyone truly practicing as a JW, but that's not intentional, just the truth of the matter. It's part of why I didn't want to get into too many details about it - I know some discussion about it couldn't be avoided, but I was after answers to my question, solely. Sorry if anyone felt trolled!

44

Miniimizing 'Punishment' - marrying a non-JW

by doasthouwilt in

i’d like to marry my best friend of 30+ years, turned ‘secret’ girlfriend of 1 ½ years who is a jehovah’s witness, born into it, baptized and an active ‘pioneer’.

our marriage would happen prior to letting any of her jw friends and cohorts know that we are together.

once married she may simply come forward and ‘admit’ or we may wait until it’s found out – one way or the other, the reason for this marriage is not customary – i am hoping that by doing so she can avoid being ‘marked’ or possibly ‘disfellowshipped’ once our relationship is no longer a secret and due to our already being married at that point, there can be no notion from society elders about her ending the relationship.

doasthouwilt

I don't see how trolling has anything to do with my posting or anything to do with her being torn, at least by the standard definition. I'm not here to rile people up, I'm here because I have a genuine question that I had yet to put to any JWs or ex-JWs and wanted that input. I didn't ask because I had any specific answer I wanted to hear, I asked to hear anything and everything people may say about it so I could take that to mind and carry on in whatever way I decide. I'm glad I did, I've had largely useful input! Thanks to all who have done so.

44

Miniimizing 'Punishment' - marrying a non-JW

by doasthouwilt in

i’d like to marry my best friend of 30+ years, turned ‘secret’ girlfriend of 1 ½ years who is a jehovah’s witness, born into it, baptized and an active ‘pioneer’.

our marriage would happen prior to letting any of her jw friends and cohorts know that we are together.

once married she may simply come forward and ‘admit’ or we may wait until it’s found out – one way or the other, the reason for this marriage is not customary – i am hoping that by doing so she can avoid being ‘marked’ or possibly ‘disfellowshipped’ once our relationship is no longer a secret and due to our already being married at that point, there can be no notion from society elders about her ending the relationship.

doasthouwilt

MeanMrMustard,

Yes, I did think I should add that, to paint a better picture.

You misunderstood what I meant by 'for reasons unrelated'. The reason she was DF'd was in no way related to the moving in with her BF - that move-in happened afterward, she was DF'd for a vice.

Her last marriage lasted just shy of 30 years (far more than 4) and she's been interested in no one else since, which has been nearly a decade, until I came along and decided it was high-time that I did get together with one of the dearest and closest people to me - that's a reality we share and very much agree on. This ONE difference (being discussed here) is the only one we have that keeps this from being entirely excellent, you couldn't know the dynamic unless you were either myself or her, but trust that neither of us are unwise, though I do appreciate the concern and hasty conclusion that may often be the case - not so here.

No, she was specifically scared back into it. I have, through the years, talked to her about it, about why she persists in it. Fear is a giant factor. "Human Capital" (which by I guess you mean friends / acquaintances?) has nothing to do with it as she's not been without those 'assets' from all fronts (JW's or otherwise) in all the years I've known her - not in the least, she is incredibly social and surrounded.

I would like if she would be more true to her inherent personality which is so unlike the JW teachings - she truly IS a 'naughty', worldly girl, and excels at it but, she's backed into a corner, has been since birth - she does, I'm sure, like Diogenesister said, compartmentalize to try to maintain both her true character and her imposed 'beliefs'. I would like more than anything if she would leave the damaging situation she was born into, but so long as that's not the case, I don't mind seeing what else can be done and I'm a tough person, not the sort that can't deal with this sort of thing, not at all.

This is why my original post had the disclaimer, " I’m not looking so much for advice on if I should do this or not or the situation in general – I have those aspects already sorted."

44

Miniimizing 'Punishment' - marrying a non-JW

by doasthouwilt in

i’d like to marry my best friend of 30+ years, turned ‘secret’ girlfriend of 1 ½ years who is a jehovah’s witness, born into it, baptized and an active ‘pioneer’.

our marriage would happen prior to letting any of her jw friends and cohorts know that we are together.

once married she may simply come forward and ‘admit’ or we may wait until it’s found out – one way or the other, the reason for this marriage is not customary – i am hoping that by doing so she can avoid being ‘marked’ or possibly ‘disfellowshipped’ once our relationship is no longer a secret and due to our already being married at that point, there can be no notion from society elders about her ending the relationship.

doasthouwilt

I should add that she had been disfellowshipped* once many years ago, for reasons unrelated to being unequally yoked, sex or the like. She moved in with her BF of the time shortly thereafter and went on to marry him - they had a child and were together for many years. Sometime between the marriage and subsequent divorce she decided she was repentant and was refellowshipped (?). I believe she was scared back into it due to 9/11, or so a mutual friend told me - I had little communication with her for a few years which happened to be during that time.

This fact is part of what makes me think that marrying her does offer some hope as, if she's not going to end it between us and not going to skip out on the society, there is middle ground where, though she'll face some sort of scolding perhaps DF'ing, we would end up together openly while maintaining an ability for her to rejoin at a later and more timely moment in her life (though she does think the world is coming to an end any moment now - of course). Someone earlier said that she'd be frowned upon for marrying a disbeliever and that if that person didn't then show interest in joining the, um, flock, that she'd bear some brunt of her mates disinterest. That did not happen in the case of her and her ex-husband. He was / is an atheist, happy in that conclusion and unable to be swayed. Despite this, her JW friends were friends of them both once she was reinstated. Perhaps the people at her KH are just not the best at being JW's or perhaps they're truly kind - I don't know how much this varies hall to hall.

It's probably evident that I have no respect for this society, I won't expound on that as it's beside the point, but I DO care about her, do respect her and do not want her to come to harm at their hands, much less have me be part of the reason. Much as I'd jump for joy if it were the case, I can't simply tell her to forsake what she's bought into (or was scared into) and 'truly believes' to one degree or another then have it happen, so I'm looking for damage control and if we're to have both scenarios in any way at all, I can't think of another possible way of softening the blow & maintaining the relationship beside marriage.

* I find it none too ironic that spellcheck suggests "horsewhipped" for "disfellowshipped"

44

Miniimizing 'Punishment' - marrying a non-JW

by doasthouwilt in

i’d like to marry my best friend of 30+ years, turned ‘secret’ girlfriend of 1 ½ years who is a jehovah’s witness, born into it, baptized and an active ‘pioneer’.

our marriage would happen prior to letting any of her jw friends and cohorts know that we are together.

once married she may simply come forward and ‘admit’ or we may wait until it’s found out – one way or the other, the reason for this marriage is not customary – i am hoping that by doing so she can avoid being ‘marked’ or possibly ‘disfellowshipped’ once our relationship is no longer a secret and due to our already being married at that point, there can be no notion from society elders about her ending the relationship.

doasthouwilt

Stephane - I'm not sure that comparing a propensity toward violence to one toward a loving relationship and all it entails is apt, but I understand the two things you are mentioning, and since I don't see her admitting to #1 entirely (though it is more the case, I would guess), there are nuances to #2:

She does find value in our relationship and all it entails and that it's lasting / ongoing - it is GOOD she's said and once even admitted that it was RIGHT & CORRECT. Our shared love is, I'm quite sure, to both of us, a large and important part of our 'values' and willfully breaking with her values doesn't have to be exclusively one or the opposing other, however, the former is natural and a matter of self-discovery while the latter was imposed on her from the beginning of her life and is driven by coercion and thug-like threats, much as she may or may not recognize that (just yet, I like to hope). You can feel allegiance to both and it WOULD make one torn, but I believe that the 'values' that are truly and wholly your own are the ones you don't need to be instructed to respect and her personality would suggest the same - she really is no good at abiding by the other, imposed 'values' - our relationship is one of several things that would be a problem in her behavior, if discovered, and she's quite willing to ignore the other 'disobedient' things she does, mainly, I'd say, as those are much easier to hide in the long-run. So, she's willfully breaking her "own" values in either case, though I hope those she comes by on her own are the ones that matter most of the two.

44

Miniimizing 'Punishment' - marrying a non-JW

by doasthouwilt in

i’d like to marry my best friend of 30+ years, turned ‘secret’ girlfriend of 1 ½ years who is a jehovah’s witness, born into it, baptized and an active ‘pioneer’.

our marriage would happen prior to letting any of her jw friends and cohorts know that we are together.

once married she may simply come forward and ‘admit’ or we may wait until it’s found out – one way or the other, the reason for this marriage is not customary – i am hoping that by doing so she can avoid being ‘marked’ or possibly ‘disfellowshipped’ once our relationship is no longer a secret and due to our already being married at that point, there can be no notion from society elders about her ending the relationship.

doasthouwilt

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far, I have a busy work day ahead so will have little time to reply for a while yet, but there's a lot here to consider - much of which I already have considered and some that sheds new light. I will have more to say and ask. Much appreciated!

One quick reply . . . .

BluesBrother - well, we are not engaged, we never will be, we will elope on a moment's notice once we get a license in our state to do so. You are right that she's lying to her friends and ministers by not letting on but she would be, conversely, lying to herself by disallowing her natural feelings, inclinations and desires and that can't lead to a happy life either. This system she was born into creates a high likelihood of unhappiness - it almost insures some level of lifelong misery. It functions like a trap and you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. You are right that there's something very wrong about it - indeed!

44

Miniimizing 'Punishment' - marrying a non-JW

by doasthouwilt in

i’d like to marry my best friend of 30+ years, turned ‘secret’ girlfriend of 1 ½ years who is a jehovah’s witness, born into it, baptized and an active ‘pioneer’.

our marriage would happen prior to letting any of her jw friends and cohorts know that we are together.

once married she may simply come forward and ‘admit’ or we may wait until it’s found out – one way or the other, the reason for this marriage is not customary – i am hoping that by doing so she can avoid being ‘marked’ or possibly ‘disfellowshipped’ once our relationship is no longer a secret and due to our already being married at that point, there can be no notion from society elders about her ending the relationship.

doasthouwilt

Diogenesister - Thanks, you bring something up that I hadn't considered and I am looking for just such insights so I can be better prepared for what may be ahead. While I do know that the role of the husband is to be 'head of the household' I hadn't thought about this applying to a disbelieving husband, I never considered going along and answering questions as the husband / the 'head' - I fully expect she's free to speak-up no matter (don't know how far this 'head' notion goes) but, is it possible that I can simply defer them to myself, asserting my husbandly 'authority'?? I'll be the first to say I'm looking for LOOPHOLES! I certainly would go along if my position as husband will have some clout, when that time comes.

As for kids - we're now mostly too old, at least for it to be wise, and I've never wanted kids no matter. She has an IUD as well - chances of a kid are nearly 0. But, just to fill in the pic a bit more, she DOES have a teenage son from her 1st marriage (I was her best man at that wedding!) who was raised JW. Her son (a fantastic, likable kid) is another tricky part of this scenario. She's torn about marrying me in as much as she would have to let him know and she, directly or not, instructed him that to be in a relationship such as our own isn't 'right'. Her son and I get along well, with lots in common, and she's even said I'd make a fantastic stepfather. I would love to have that opportunity, I would. I love him as well. To be honest, I believe he knows about us anyway. I live at her place mostly on the days / nights when he is not there, but he does encounter me often enough - I even stay over once every couple of weeks on a night when he is at her place, but we go to bed well after he does and on non-school days I have to get up quite early to clear out. I SO wish he did know, as would be normal, and that the troubles would be minimal. I believe he'd be glad about it.

You're quite right - she WILL struggle, but I believe she's up to it. I asked her once if she thought our being together and all it entailed was expressly GOOD - she said it was. I then asked her if it were possible that something could be good but not be RIGHT, this she didn't answer in words, though I could see on her face what the answer was. She'll struggle, but I don't think she's willing to accept being unnecessarily ostracized for something good. I'm trying like mad to make this work, I think she respects that and I think knows, intrinsically, that a thing can be GOOD despite any popular or non-popular 'concept' of RIGHT. I, of course, know it's BOTH.

44

Miniimizing 'Punishment' - marrying a non-JW

by doasthouwilt in

i’d like to marry my best friend of 30+ years, turned ‘secret’ girlfriend of 1 ½ years who is a jehovah’s witness, born into it, baptized and an active ‘pioneer’.

our marriage would happen prior to letting any of her jw friends and cohorts know that we are together.

once married she may simply come forward and ‘admit’ or we may wait until it’s found out – one way or the other, the reason for this marriage is not customary – i am hoping that by doing so she can avoid being ‘marked’ or possibly ‘disfellowshipped’ once our relationship is no longer a secret and due to our already being married at that point, there can be no notion from society elders about her ending the relationship.

doasthouwilt

Hoser - I'm assuming by "love-bombed" you mean set on as a potential new convo by means of showing "love" (correct me if I'm wrong, but that certainly is a scenario I know may exist). Thing is, twofold - the elders will NEVER meet me and I may choose to stay clear of her JW cohorts / friends to keep my need for incredulity at a minimum (I'd RATHER know some of them, but if it comes to that sort of thing and they persist, they will not have the pleasure). It's hard to explain without knowing me personally, but I'm not a "sell", never will be - the phrase "talking to a wall" doesn't go far enough. I will be polite, but if the topic turns to that they will get 0 response - for all else, I'll be willing, friendly and truly likable - this will be evident within a couple sentences.

44

Miniimizing 'Punishment' - marrying a non-JW

by doasthouwilt in

i’d like to marry my best friend of 30+ years, turned ‘secret’ girlfriend of 1 ½ years who is a jehovah’s witness, born into it, baptized and an active ‘pioneer’.

our marriage would happen prior to letting any of her jw friends and cohorts know that we are together.

once married she may simply come forward and ‘admit’ or we may wait until it’s found out – one way or the other, the reason for this marriage is not customary – i am hoping that by doing so she can avoid being ‘marked’ or possibly ‘disfellowshipped’ once our relationship is no longer a secret and due to our already being married at that point, there can be no notion from society elders about her ending the relationship.

doasthouwilt

I know that some of the outcome relies on what details she's asked and what details she gives when our status is, by one means or another, revealed. I know by marring before any of that can happen that there can be no requirement to divorce in order to prove repentance, in-turn saving a relationship we both want to have. That is one half of it. Another reason for marrying is possibly minimizing the sort of 'trouble' she gets in. Yes, I do live with her largely, yes we 'fornicate' wonderfully and often - I would not be surprised if such questions came up once she admitted to having married me, but let's say she doesn't decide to offer those details and that it's simply the case of dear friends who love each other undeniably, eloped and were quickly married - wouldn't disfellowshipping be way overboard? I know that she'll face one variety of scolding or another (and yes, loss of 'Pioneer' status - whatever benefit there actually is to that made-up title) but DF'd?!

44

Miniimizing 'Punishment' - marrying a non-JW

by doasthouwilt in

i’d like to marry my best friend of 30+ years, turned ‘secret’ girlfriend of 1 ½ years who is a jehovah’s witness, born into it, baptized and an active ‘pioneer’.

our marriage would happen prior to letting any of her jw friends and cohorts know that we are together.

once married she may simply come forward and ‘admit’ or we may wait until it’s found out – one way or the other, the reason for this marriage is not customary – i am hoping that by doing so she can avoid being ‘marked’ or possibly ‘disfellowshipped’ once our relationship is no longer a secret and due to our already being married at that point, there can be no notion from society elders about her ending the relationship.

doasthouwilt

I’d like to marry my best friend of 30+ years, turned ‘secret’ girlfriend of 1 ½ years who is a Jehovah’s Witness, born into it, baptized and an active ‘pioneer’. Our marriage would happen prior to letting any of her JW friends and cohorts know that we are together. Once married she may simply come forward and ‘admit’ or we may wait until it’s found out – one way or the other, the reason for this marriage is not customary – I am hoping that by doing so she can avoid being ‘marked’ or possibly ‘disfellowshipped’ once our relationship is no longer a secret and due to our already being married at that point, there can be no notion from society elders about her ending the relationship. I do not believe this society would condone divorce as, from what I understand of what they presume presently, a woman can only divorce for a husband’s infidelity, whether he’s a believer or disbeliever (my feelings about the whole thing tend more toward disbelief than unbelief – it’s not that I simply don’t believe it, it’s that I can’t believe anyone ever could believe it). I am hoping it would culminate in some sort of reprimand at worst and, once it is said and done, we can finally be free to be together openly in all cases. I want us to be absolved of the secrecy and the abnormality of the not ‘letting on’, despite it being a such a good, beautiful, true and above all, normal (!) circumstance. Having known her for so very long and having been close to her for many years I know much of what she thinks and mostly, I’m quite sure, what she feels. I know she wants the relationship to move forward and that she wants it to be safe from any such meddling and I certainly know that she loves me and she knows I want the same and knows that I do love her, so dearly. She tells me that she’s fine when I’m around (I live at her house 4 to 5 days and nights of each week – it’s been the case for many months) but, when I’m not around she lives in a state of fearfulness, and, I expect, guilt. My becoming a JW (another option) is so far out of the question as to be utterly ridiculous - she knows this, she knows that I’m a vehement agnostic who came to it by way mainly of imposed Christianity and, much to her credit, and my relief, hasn’t tried to persuade me believe any of what she does (or likely, must). There’s nothing about her that is remotely Jehovah’s Witness-y, it is a terrible, unbecoming fit for her personality, but she was born into it and is, I believe, because of that, mostly incapable of escaping the many grave and dreadful notions they rely on, not to mention the lifelong paranoia due to the fear embraced and inherent in it along with the threats and the humiliation so often employed to keep everything without variable.

What I’m most wanting is input on details on what sort of ‘punishment’ she may expect once our marriage is public to all and input on what society elders can and cannot do over willful marriage of a baptized JW to an ardent disbeliever. I’m not looking so much for advice on if I should do this or not or the situation in general – I have those aspects already sorted. I fully understand who I’m with – I know her better than I know some immediate family members. I do love her, she does love me, I want to preserve this relationship while also minimizing or ideally, averting any damage that could be handed to us by this society.