Posts by Konagirl

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Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?

by Vanderhoven7 in

text: matthew 24:45-47.

45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

Konagirl

Hi Vanderhoven7,

Luke 16:23 - “And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”

Hades is not “hellfire” – Gehenna.

It means the opposite of seeing, of perceiving. adh hadE G86 n_ Dat Sg m UN-PERCEIVED unseen

I don’t know why some translations say “hell” for this verse. Even the NKJV contradicts itself using hell. In James 3:6, it adds a footnote saying “hell” refers to Gehenna.

“Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things. See how great a forest a little fire kindles! 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by [e]hell.” James 3:6 Gr. Gehenna

To tell you the truth, I don’t know what type of hellfire doctrine the Pharisees taught, or if they were all consistent in teaching it. Their valley of Gehenna, as we know, was the early location of child sacrifice, which leaders, kings of Israel participated in. Jesus was not using their supposed doctrine of hellfire, but speaking of Sheol/Hades, the pit which they knew all about from the scriptures. It has many descriptions, including this one:

They have provoked my jealousy
with what is not a god;
they have enraged me with their worthless idols.
So I will provoke their jealousy
with what is not a people;
I will enrage them with a foolish nation.
For fire has been kindled because of my anger
and burns to the depths of Sheol;
it devours the land and its produce,
and scorches the foundations of the mountains.

How can a literal hellfire devour mountains and land?

Pay attention, heavens, and I will speak;
listen, earth, to the words from my mouth. Deut 32:21-22,1

God's word is a "consuming fire". Jer 23:29

Jer 5:4 - Therefore, this is what the Lord God of Armies says: Because you have spoken this word, I am going to make my words become fire in your mouth. These people are the wood, and the fire will consume them.

You said - Secondly, how do you think the Pharisees justified not lifting a finger to help the poor?

How does any wicked leader justify not lifting a finger to help the poor? Isn’t an age-old repeat, and we see it in the Watchtower?... who say, ‘Keep away; don’t come near me, for I am too sacred for you!’ Such people are smoke in my nostrils, a fire that keeps burning all day. Isa 65:5

Psalm 93 NIV - How long, Lord, will the wicked,
how long will the wicked be jubilant?

They pour out arrogant words;
all the evildoers are full of boasting.
5 They crush your people, Lord;
they oppress your inheritance.
6 They slay the widow and the foreigner;
they murder the fatherless.
7 They say, “The Lord does not see;
the God of Jacob takes no notice.”

This, is how they justify their actions.

The wicked band together against the righteous
and condemn the innocent to death. (21)

NLT verse 23 - God will turn the sins of evil people back on them. He will destroy them for their sins. The LORD our God will destroy them.

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Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?

by Vanderhoven7 in

text: matthew 24:45-47.

45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

Konagirl

Hi Vanderhoven

Your message is a little confusing for me. If the ungodly perish, vanish, as scriptures say, then there is no eternal torment that a person is aware of, after judgment in the lake of fire - judgment, the words, lies that they lived by, but also the words of God condemnation coming against them. That, is their suffering and torment.

Their torment ascends like smoke. What happens after something is burned up? The smoke is a memory of what the wicked did and the judgment that came upon them. It is the legacy that they leave behind. I watched this literally happen where I live. When the forests around us burned in a raging fire, the smoke persisted long after the trees were nothing but ash. “Fire” symbolizes words that which come from one’s mouth – either God’s word of truth (Jer 23:29; Rev 11:1-5) or that of Satan’s words of lies. (Rev 13:11,13; 12:3; Rev 13:15,4) Both, are words of condemnation. There is no literal fire that people will be subjected to when thrown into the lake of fire. Is that what you are meaning? I didn’t think so by your previous comments, but maybe I misunderstood. God was against the sacrificing of children in a literal fire. If that never came to His mind, why would He condone the eternal physical burning of the wicked? (Jer 19:5)

Psalm 37:20 – “But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.” There is not an “afterlife” of torment for the wicked to be eternally cognizant of. Isa 41:11

Hell, is Gehenna, not Hades or Sheol or the abyss, or even Tartarus. (James 3:6) The rich man, whether he was alive or dead, was already in Hades. When on earth, he was already “dead” spiritually, because he rejected Jesus Christ. (John 6:63; Eph 2:1; Rom 6:13) The Pharisees were well aware of Sheol, Hades and what it meant. It is spiritual captivity to darkness and separation from God. This is Satan’s realm of darkness. (Rev 9:11; Prov 15:11; Job 26:6) Without the light of Christ, we remain in a spiritual “Hades” while we are in the flesh.

Where did Jesus go when he died, and who did he talk to? 1 Pet 3:18-19; 2 Pet 2:4

It’s not a literal place, it is a spiritual state of “not perceiving”. In the case of the rich man in Hades, his hardened heart refused to perceive, to accept within him why Jesus came, and the light of life he offered to those who turned to him. (Isa 14:14-15) And the chasm between darkness and light is great. There is no crossing over to the light unless one seeks to find it, and the heart is determined to serve God with all their heart, soul and mind. (2 Sam 22:6-20) In the case of the rich man, that was not his intention, even though he faced God's judgment in the lake of fire.

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Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?

by Vanderhoven7 in

text: matthew 24:45-47.

45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

Konagirl

@Vanderhoven7

Hold on, I think you don't understand that I never said people will burn in torment forever. I don’t believe in eternal torment, in a literal “hellfire”.

Hades, Sheol, the abyss, the pit,all have the same meaning. None are the “lake of fire”, which I already explained is not a physical burning forever. Hades is darkness, devoid of the light and life of Christ. Jonah 2:2 We can be in Hades, the abyss, the pit, even when physically alive, “not perceiving” or understand truth. Eph 2:1,2,12

If people were to eternally burn in Hades, then why do the scriptures say Hades will be emptied, and thrown into the “lake of fire?” Rev 20:13-14 As I said, torment that results from God’s judgment happens within the heart. And from there, the wicked will perish. 2 Pet 2:12

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Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?

by Vanderhoven7 in

text: matthew 24:45-47.

45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

Konagirl

@Vanderhoven7

Jesus came to save his people. His message was desperate that they repent, to turn to him and receive salvation. During his preaching, he expressed anger, impatience, and love. And I am sure there were times that Jesus had light-hearted conversations with the disciples. But his parables were not parodies or satire. They each carried a message with great meaning, that only those with eyes to see and ears to hear would understand. (Matt 13:10-17) In Luke 16:19-31, why would a message of life and death become satire, a parody? The parable in Luke was describing what would happen to the Pharisees and Sadducees, and any other wicked leaders and individuals of God’s people who refused to listen to the warning about them – to repent. God said time again he would send prophets warning them of their sins. (Jer 35:15) The rich man in the parable most likely received more than one warning that he disregarded, until he faced final judgment for his sins. And then, he wanted to be saved from the God’s condemnation upon him. That will become a reality for many in judgment day, no?

Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “ If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” John 7:37-38

He also said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”

And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ Luke 16:24

What water? The living water of life. (Prov 25:25; Matt 10:40-42)

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

Matt 23:34 - “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.”

And did the Pharisees accept Jesus after he was resurrected?

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Jesus taught us to love our enemies, not to make a joke over the loss of their life.

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Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?

by Vanderhoven7 in

text: matthew 24:45-47.

45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

Konagirl

Thanks Vanderhoven, but I don't think I can agree that it is a parody. I doubt Jesus meant it to be humorous, since he wept over his own people’s blindness. A warning parable, yes. Psalm 78:2; Mark 4:34

It’s interesting that the meaning of both Ben Hinnom, Hebrew for Gehenna, and Gehenna in Greek refer to “son of wailing, of muffled groaning”/”valley of muffled groaning”. The final judgment of condemnation against the wicked takes place in and affects the heart, I believe, since “for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart” and directs our actions toward others. I personally believe it is there, where the weeping and gnashing of teeth happens, when one’s heart is on fire, facing retribution for one’s wickedness practiced against others. Luke 6:45; Jer 17:9-10

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Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?

by Vanderhoven7 in

text: matthew 24:45-47.

45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

Konagirl

Something to think about -

“Is not My word like fire?” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?” Jer 23:29

“They have lied about the LORD and said:

“He will not do anything; harm will not come to us;

we will not see sword or famine.

The prophets are but wind,

for the word is not in them.

So let their own predictions befall them.”

Therefore this is what the LORD God of Hosts says:

“Because you have spoken this word,

I will make My words a fire in your mouth

and this people the wood it consumes.

God’s word is the “fire” that judges. (John 12:48) But also, when we think of “hell”, Gehenna, and being thrown into it, did God create the “fiery” hell spoken of in the Bible?

“Now if we put the bits into the horses’ mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well. 4 Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires. 5 So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! 6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by [d]hell.

“hell” – Gehenna. God didn’t create hell. It is the creation of wickedness, of Satan. Whatever “word” we hold on our tongue will either judge us as righteous according to God’s word, or condemned, according to the adversary’s words. (Isa 59:3; 30:27) “Torment” suffered by those who are thrown in the symbolic “lake of fire”, (because “fire” symbolizes either righteous or wicked words) is not literal in the account in Luke 16:19-31. The rich man said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ The man was in agony over the condemnation against him by the word of God in Jesus Christ. If he was consumed in a literal lake of fire, he would not be asking for only his tongue to be quenched. God’s judgment, which is like “fire”, IS unquenchable. That man's final judgment can never be put out, reversed. (Mark 9:43)

I don’t see in the scriptures where it says “eternal torment” by literal fire. I see that the symbolic “smoke” of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they will have no rest - no entering into the eternal Sabbath rest of God. (Rev 14:10-11; Heb 3:10-11) The legacy of the wicked, the symbolic smoke resulting in fiery judgment left behind, will never be forgotten.

The judgment of God’s word has always been retribution for one’s wicked acts. If they used the “fire” of Satan’s word against another, then they also will suffer under the same flame kindled by the Destroyer.

Rev 18:6 - Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her.

Jesus is the Author of life, Satan offers death and destruction…as the Destroyer. Acts 3:15; John 10:9; Rev 9:11; Prov 27:20; Job 26:6; Gen 3:4

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Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?

by Vanderhoven7 in

text: matthew 24:45-47.

45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

Konagirl

“Who else could the Faithful Slave be? If you don't believe this and obey the Slave, you will be destroyed at Armageddon.”

John 10: 37-38 - If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

To the unbelieving Jews who sought to kill Jesus, he said,

John 8:38 - I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”

The works of Jesus Christ are the works of the Father. All false teachings are the works of the father of the lie.

Gal 1:10 - For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a slave of Christ.

There can be two opposing “faithful slaves” – one that faithfully speaks only the word of God in Christ - not his own doctrine - and is a servant/slave of Christ; and one that “faithfully” bases his words on his own delusions, lusts and desire for dominance and obedience of those whom he rules over, fulfilling the works of the father he has chosen to serve.

1 Tim 4:1-2 - But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron.

The organization is built on policies and doctrines, as all organization in the world are. But with this one, there is just enough mention of the words of Christ to keep its followers ‘captivated’ and obedient to its wicked slave. Matt 24:48-51

Col 2:8 - See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

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Can you openly express doubts in the congregation these days?

by Elena in

i know of a lovely old sister who has been a jw for several decades now who openly expresses doubts about jw interpretations.. she does it in such a lovely way and everyone loves her.

she is such a sweet old soul, makes everyone happy around her.. she has said things like- even if we have got it wrong about this and that i still believe the bible is gods word”.

she answers up regularly and she goes on ministry groups but like most of us she is definitely jwlite, we don’t really do door to door work anymore.

Konagirl

"At that time, the lifesaving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not."

That's the problem. The whole composite of leaders, whether the GB or the elder body, are masters over JWs, and not Jesus Christ. It can't be both. 1 Sam 8:4-20; Matt 6:24

"For am I now trying to persuade people, or God? Or am I striving to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ." Gal. 1:10

For PIMOs, there will never be freedom as long as they still submit to the guidelines of "organization". John 8:32

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Can you openly express doubts in the congregation these days?

by Elena in

i know of a lovely old sister who has been a jw for several decades now who openly expresses doubts about jw interpretations.. she does it in such a lovely way and everyone loves her.

she is such a sweet old soul, makes everyone happy around her.. she has said things like- even if we have got it wrong about this and that i still believe the bible is gods word”.

she answers up regularly and she goes on ministry groups but like most of us she is definitely jwlite, we don’t really do door to door work anymore.

Konagirl

This is an organization of people that says it follows God’s word; yet, it rejects the words of Christ and his example of speaking out for truth. If a JW tries to buffer or remain close-lipped to what they know is wrong, no matter how old or young they are, where is their integrity? Where is their belief in Jesus Christ? And where is their love for neighbor? Or, is it all about saving their own skin? John 16:2; Heb 13:11-14; Mark 8:35

Prov 11:3 – “The integrity of the upright guides them, but the unfaithful are destroyed by their duplicity.”

14

I’m not sure what this means!

by NeedsProof in

yesterday i was visited by 2 witnesses, and we had a long chat about lots of things!

one of them named claire took the lead and i instantly felt some sort of connection to her, after we had spoken and they had left i started to have this overwhelming feeling to research her and what she had spoken about but i couldn’t find her anywhere on any website or social media, so i left it and thought nothing more of it all day….

however the strange thing is i had a dream that night and claire was in it, many things happened in this dream that i was told i was only allowed to speak about with claire, i can speak of the dream to others but the details only me and claire can know!

Konagirl

If your dream was from God or from Jesus, there would be no reason for either one of them to tell you that you can’t share any of the details, but only to Claire. If your dream was based on truth, why does it have to be a secret?

Jesus said, “What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.” Matt 10:27

The Watchtower organization hides its previous lies, to make room for more lies, that also become hidden. Their true agenda is hidden. Don’t be deceived! Satan’s deception appears as truth. Jesus’ truth exposes deception.

Your dream is leaning on, and twisting, the meaning of Rev 12:1-5. The Wt. organization believes that the “heavenly” organization (where a literal 144,000 male clones sit on literal thrones peering down on the those who live on the earth in their kingdom), which they call “mother”, gave birth to Jesus Christ, and he is taken up to this heavenly organization. How could that be when Jesus, as the “master worker” with God, created all things? (Prov 8:22-31; Acts 3:14-15) Their interpretation of it, supports their false date of God’s Kingdom beginning in 1914. Here’s a few quotes about it:

“The woman John here sees is also married to someone, and she is about to give birth. Who is her husband? Well, later her child is “caught away to God and to his throne.” (Revelation 12:5) Jehovah thus claims the child as his own. Therefore, the woman that John sees must be Jehovah’s symbolic wife.” Revelation book chapter 27

This woman represents God’s heavenly organization of faithful angels, and the “male child” to whom she gives birth represents God’s Kingdom, with Jesus Christ ruling as King.—Revelation 12:1-5, The Jerusalem Bible. w99 4/15 p. 10-11

As the “child” is not an individual person, so its mother, the “woman” in heaven, is not an individual person. Since this symbolic “woman” was made pregnant by God as her husband, she must picture God’s spiritual organization. w81 5/1 p. 21-22

The birth of Jehovah’s Kingdom by Christ, as pictured by the newborn child of God’s woman, was first explained in The Watch Tower of March 1, 1925. The birth of this Messianic Kingdom in heaven in 1914 differs from the birth of the “nation” of Zion’s ‘children’ on earth in 1919.—Isaiah 66:7,8. w89 9/1 p. 18-19

Can you make sense of it all? The “woman” of Revelation 12, represents a covenant, a promise of life, not an organization where the angels decided with God, that Jesus should be born. Gal 4:23-24,26 And why would the baby be wearing a crown of thorns? This is a sign of persecution that came upon Jesus by those who killed him. (John 19:1-3) This organization defies Jesus Christ. They shove his role as Savior aside and exalt their leaders and the organization that Claire must answer to. (Dan 8:25; Matt 24:24-25; Rev 13:1,2,4) Getting involved with the organization is getting trapped in the web of a poisonous spider.

Please, be careful.