Posts by scholar

89

Is WTS chronology flawed?

by cultswatter in

historians agree that jerusalem was invaded by babylon in 586/587bce.

the wts discredits most historical records and says that jerusalem was invaded in 607bce.

the wts start with 587 and add the 70 years that jerusalem lay desolate to obtain the 607 date.. if jerusalem was invaded in 587 then it lay desolate for only 50 years (587-537=50).

Your accusation that the NWT's rendering of 2 Chronicles 36:21is badly punctuated andnot honestly presented is plainly false. The rendering of the NWT is in agreement with RSV which reads similarly. Your statement that the sentence attributed to Jeremiah is shown parenthetically in the NIV is not shown in my NIV Study Bible, 1995 nor is it presented in parenthgesis in the NIV edition cited by Ross Winkle in his journal article on the seventy years published in 1987. So, what NIV edition are you using in order to support your accusation?

Commentators agree that the Jeremiah sentence is a citation of Jeremiah 25:11; 29:10 conjoined with Lev 26:34 so the rendering as it appears is valid unless you can demonstrate that the Chronicler was mistaken on this matter.Therefore there is no need of any parenthesis in this text as you demand because the only Bible that I am aware that has such parenthesis is a Swedish translation published 1917.

scholar JW

89

Is WTS chronology flawed?

by cultswatter in

historians agree that jerusalem was invaded by babylon in 586/587bce.

the wts discredits most historical records and says that jerusalem was invaded in 607bce.

the wts start with 587 and add the 70 years that jerusalem lay desolate to obtain the 607 date.. if jerusalem was invaded in 587 then it lay desolate for only 50 years (587-537=50).

scholar

Jeffro

Post 1543

Whatever I post you will surely respond so my postings must be of a serious threat to your nonsense.

The NWT is the most brilliant of all translations so any accusation of mispunctuation amounts to jealousy on your part.

Are you trying to say that the expression 'until the land had paid of its sabbaths' does not occur in the original text? Or is it the case that your special pleading cannot accommodate this expression because it makes you look foolish? This expression is not parenthetical because the marginal reference in the NWT cites Lev.26:34 which contains this identical expression thus destroying your argument.

Indeed verse 20 highlights servitude to Babylon which I have always maintained for the seventy years for in short the seventy years was a period of exile, a period of serviude and a period of desolation.

A tabulation of Neo-Babylonian rulers is impossible because the data is not reliable between the sources and is compromised by Josephus' history. Also, the Bible provides minimal data for these rulers which shows its insignificance in respect of establishing a accurate Bible chronology. But the most grevious issue is the simple fact that such proposed regnal years cannot account for the seventy years with a Babylonian Gap of twenty years.

So you have one biggggggg.....problem!

scholar JW

89

Is WTS chronology flawed?

by cultswatter in

historians agree that jerusalem was invaded by babylon in 586/587bce.

the wts discredits most historical records and says that jerusalem was invaded in 607bce.

the wts start with 587 and add the 70 years that jerusalem lay desolate to obtain the 607 date.. if jerusalem was invaded in 587 then it lay desolate for only 50 years (587-537=50).

scholar

Jeffro

Post 1542

Yes, I am back for the moment. There is no misunderstanding with 2 Chronicles 36:20-22 but simplystating plain statement of Scripture. It is you and your wiley poztates that are victims of higher criticism and convoluted misinterpretation of the Scriptures. If you require a tabulation of Neo-Babylonian rulers then consult the secular records but as Josephus provides different regnal data then you have a bigggg problem.

scholar JW

89

Is WTS chronology flawed?

by cultswatter in

historians agree that jerusalem was invaded by babylon in 586/587bce.

the wts discredits most historical records and says that jerusalem was invaded in 607bce.

the wts start with 587 and add the 70 years that jerusalem lay desolate to obtain the 607 date.. if jerusalem was invaded in 587 then it lay desolate for only 50 years (587-537=50).

scholar

carla

I cannot assist you with the identity or qualifications of the celebrated WT scholars

Regretfully

scholar JW

89

Is WTS chronology flawed?

by cultswatter in

historians agree that jerusalem was invaded by babylon in 586/587bce.

the wts discredits most historical records and says that jerusalem was invaded in 607bce.

the wts start with 587 and add the 70 years that jerusalem lay desolate to obtain the 607 date.. if jerusalem was invaded in 587 then it lay desolate for only 50 years (587-537=50).

scholar

jeanV

Let me assure you that I am fully aware of the issues surrounding Josephus and I have concluded that as with all other secular historians and secular records that these are not inspired of God and are fallible sources and documents. Josephus is a reliable but not infallible historian and his Jewish history should not be ignored but provides a useful testimony to the biblical record and supports nicely, accurate Bible chronology long proclaimed by the celebrated WT scholars.

scholar JW

89

Is WTS chronology flawed?

by cultswatter in

historians agree that jerusalem was invaded by babylon in 586/587bce.

the wts discredits most historical records and says that jerusalem was invaded in 607bce.

the wts start with 587 and add the 70 years that jerusalem lay desolate to obtain the 607 date.. if jerusalem was invaded in 587 then it lay desolate for only 50 years (587-537=50).

scholar

Doug Mason

Post 140

The scriptures most definitely state that the 'seventy years of Jeremiah' ended with the Return of the Exiles not at the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE but at the Return of the Exiles in 537. This accords with Ezra's history as stated in 2 Chronicles 36:20: to wit "until the royalty of Persia began to reign". This unambiguous statement does not and cannot coincide with the Fall of Babylon and its ruling dynasty which ended in 539 BCE.

Further, the immediate context deals with the first year of Cyrus that Jeremiah's prophecy of the seventy years would be fulfilled and no mention is made in this context of Babylon, its Fall and her last ruler. So, the evidence is quite clear that the hypothesis of the seventy years ending with Babylon's demise is plainly false. Josephus makes many reference to the fact of the seventy years as a fixed historic period which ran from the Fall of Jerusalem to the Return of the Exiles under Cyrus and he shows in agreement with biblical history that the seventy years was a period of Exile-Servitude-Desolation.

The seventy years is the subject of widespread disagreement within scholarship and the 'wiley poztates and such controversy arises when higher criticism and secular chronologies are preferrred over plainly stated scriptures such as those in Ezra, Daniel, Jeremiah and Zechariah. The understanding of the seventy years as advanced by celebrated WT scholars promoted in WT publication and made known to all by Jehovah's Witnesses works whereas the other views fail.

I acknowledge the contents on chronology posted on your website and your research over many years published in the now defunct SDA Witness periodical as I have much contact with its edittor, Bruce Price on matters of chronology. I will give further comments on your published comments on our chronology and wish to contact you by telephone and e-mail.

scholar JW

54

Fact Jews Returned In 538 BC Kills Off Watchtower Chronology

by AlanF in

the watchtower society's 1914 chronology hinges on a dicey chain of claims.

if any of these claims is wrong, then the chain is broken and watchtower chronology collapses.

along with it goes the entire belief structure built on it, including most importantly the claim of the leaders of jehovah's witnesses to have been specially appointed in 1919 by god over "all christ's belongings" on earth.

scholar

Alan F

4634

You continue to refuse to explain why Jonsson has not provided support for your grandiose claim and you fail to provide any scholarly support for 538 as the only possible year for the Return. Your failure to address these two fundamental issues proves that your claim is false and that your tabulation is a shonk. Celebrated WT scholars have indeed presented clear evidence in support of 537 and have also demonstrated competence in matters of calendation.

scholar JW

54

Fact Jews Returned In 538 BC Kills Off Watchtower Chronology

by AlanF in

the watchtower society's 1914 chronology hinges on a dicey chain of claims.

if any of these claims is wrong, then the chain is broken and watchtower chronology collapses.

along with it goes the entire belief structure built on it, including most importantly the claim of the leaders of jehovah's witnesses to have been specially appointed in 1919 by god over "all christ's belongings" on earth.

scholar

Alan F

There is no hypocrisy at all because celebrated WT scholars are merely stating the generally accepted fact that the Return happened in 537 BCE or in other words this observation of the biblical and secular evidence reflects current and past knowledge. What you claim is rather an extreme and fanatical view of simple biblical and secular facts that cannot be construed your dogmatic position. I know that your view would not be accepted by any serious-minded scholar because of the simple onservation that the year of the Return is of minimal importance but the fact of the Return is of significant historical and theological significance.

The calculation of 537 BCE is not based upon speculation at all but on biblical and seclar evidence and these relevant facts are presented in WT publications over many decades. Jonsson himself acknowledges this because he offers no substantive criticism of the this date and its determination. Josephus has offers nothing that disproves that 537 BCE is the year for the Return and neither does Ezra.

The facts that you say are incontrovertible are such only to youand like-minded apostates and are viewed somewhat differently by scholars. You really need to run your hypothesis past your guru Jonsson and see if he will include this new material in a future edition of his GTR for it to have any merit at all.

What you need to understand first before tabulating the data is that there is considerable debate about when the first year of Cyrus should commence but in either event celebrated WT scholars have reconciled such views so that the Exiles returned home by the seventh month of 537BCE which recognizes the Finegan observation that the first year of Cyrus began 538/537 BCE.

If you wish to examine the acceptance of 537 by the scholarly community then is amply demonstrated by using Google and you will have all the information you need.

scholar JW

54

Fact Jews Returned In 538 BC Kills Off Watchtower Chronology

by AlanF in

the watchtower society's 1914 chronology hinges on a dicey chain of claims.

if any of these claims is wrong, then the chain is broken and watchtower chronology collapses.

along with it goes the entire belief structure built on it, including most importantly the claim of the leaders of jehovah's witnesses to have been specially appointed in 1919 by god over "all christ's belongings" on earth.

scholar

Alan F

4623

Your dogmatic and grandiose opinion that 538 is the only date for the Return does not agree with the rather modest claims about 538 presented by Jonsson by means of a footnote which is based on only two scholarly sources. These scholars do not share your dogmatism about this matter. In fact, scholars scholars are not concerned about the precise date for the Return but merely focus on year of Cyrus' Decree which is widely held to be 538 with the Return following that.

Have you presented your new theory about hte matter with all of your 'startling evidence' for the approval of your guru Jonsson yet?

I challenge you present definite scholarly opinion that supports 538 and not 537 for the Return and further if you search 537 by means of google you will notice that there is a general acceptance for 537 rather 538. So much for your childish nonsense.

scholar JW

54

Fact Jews Returned In 538 BC Kills Off Watchtower Chronology

by AlanF in

the watchtower society's 1914 chronology hinges on a dicey chain of claims.

if any of these claims is wrong, then the chain is broken and watchtower chronology collapses.

along with it goes the entire belief structure built on it, including most importantly the claim of the leaders of jehovah's witnesses to have been specially appointed in 1919 by god over "all christ's belongings" on earth.

scholar

Alan F

4617

If you say that Carl Jonsson believes that 538 BCE is the only possible date for the Return then prove it for Jonsson nowhere in his GTR has stated this matter as dogmatically as you have. Jonsson does not share your dogmatic opinion and niether do modern scholars.

I challenge you to provide confirmation of your special little theory by other scholars or other reference works because all that you have is a personal opinion or preference which is meaningless. There would be some scholars who argue for 538 and there would also be others who prefer 537 BCE so where does this leave your little pet theory.

scholar JW