Posts by scholar

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Doug Mason

Post 199

Physics shows that heat and light go together and exist separately.

Celebrated WT scholars have well and truly proven that 537 BCE was and is the only possible date for the Return setting out such evidence in WT publications over many decades. These facts are familiar to you as you have provided such in your recent articles. It is pleasing that you have an open mind on this subject so I will be providing information on this matter dealing with the so-called tie-breaker with Josephus and Ezra 3:8.

In some sense, Neo-Babyloian chronology is a 'test' of WT biblical chronology but I prefer to consider the former more of an independent witness to the validity of the latter because secular, profane Neo-Babylonian chronology falls a mere twenty years short of biblically established dates such as 607 BCE. The reason for this small gap is that this chronology omits history failing to consider the seventy years of exile-desolation and servitude.

I will be dealing with the fact that the first year of Cyrus should be counted from Nisan rather than Tishri in my response to Alan F's nonsense so keep watching. The reign of Darius is very important in the context of establishing a date for the Return because his reign is linked to the termination of the seventy years in which Cyrus' Decree permitted the Jews to return home by the seventh month in 537 BCE. The reign of Darius may have been commensurate with the first year of Cyrus or intervened between the Fall of Babylon and the first year of Cyrus.

You seem to be spooked by the zero-year problem but what you fail to realize is that is was the celebrated WT scholars who first drew attention to scholars that an adjustment was require for it was the case in the earlier decades of the last century that scholars had made this error. Our chronology was then 'fine' tuned' by the 'celedbrated ones' demonstrating that chronology is always a work in progress.

When P&D was first published in the early forties it was of great benefit to the 'celebrated ones' who since then have made good use of this piece of scholarship to the chagrin of critics and apostates.

You request a diagram and I am happy to oblige forthwith: NIV Study Bible, 10th Anniversary Edition, 1995, p.667.

nb. Please note the scriptural references Ezra 3:1; 3:8

It can hardly be said that the said 'scholar' has been dancing around the doorknob as I have been arguing matters of chronology in some depth on this board for the last five years and have dealt with every objection in full excepting for the Alan F query as previously mentioned. Besides you well know the methodology of the WT's 537 date and the evidence for it so I do not intend to repeat what you already have presented. What I will do is to present additional information bearing on the matter which deals with Alan F's little difficulty. This is the second timeI have helped him with a problem

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

hilary_step

Let me assure you that scholar is not backed into any corner but is fully and willing to tackle those critics of our sacred biblical chronology and one laughs at those pitiful efforts of aspostates whose main aim purpose in life is to seek mischevious ways to discredit this chronology.

Jehovah's Witnesses are champions of truth and integrity which even the world recognizes even though it fails to discern the 'true religion'. Our chronology is simply based on God's true inspired Word and has nothing to do with cultish thinking for in fact it is our enemies and critics who enslave to the cult of personality by following blindly the teachings, falsehoods, lies and misrepresentations of apostates.

I have no interest in Mormons and such whacky theories but only in the whacky theory of Neo-Babylonian chronology which ignores the most important piece of biblical history namely Jeremiah's seventy years of exile-servitude and desolation.So there!!!!!!!

scholar JW

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Doug Mason

Post 197

Your comments demand a reply. You are partially correct when you say that the WT's adoption of 537 BCE is traditional or owes itself merely to some 'tradition'. In fact, as 586 BCE rather than the 'apostate' date of 587 has become the traditional date for the Fall within current scholarship so it is the case with 537 BCE for the Return. This widespread endoresement of this date is due to the research methodology which the 'celebrated' Wt scholars first brought to the attention of the scholarly community in 1949. This nicely followed the publication of Babylonian Chronology 626 BC-AD 45 by Richard Parker and Waldo h. Dubberstein in 1942 and 1946 respectively anticpated by the 'celebrated' and fully utilzed by them in the 'fine tuning ' of Bible chronology.

It is your position that is 'feeble' because your research offers nothing new, no fresh insights offering no precise date for the Fall for all you achieve is simply a biased criticism of a widely held traditional date well crafted on the basis of history by the 'celebrated ones'.

You say that the date is inconsequential to you which is rather dishonest because you have spent much time on this subject having already posted major articles on your website relating to this very matter so who are you trying to fool?

scholar JW

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Alan F

Post 5064

In matters of chronology any so called 'proof' is relative to methodology and interpretation of history so yes you have 'proved' that 538 BCE is the date for the Return just as 'celebrated' WT scholars have also 'proved' that 537 BCE is tthat date. Similarly, Mason has also proved that there is no 'proof' for any date whatsoever.

Why not just stick to the basic facts and those assumptions that are made necessary in order to historize the Return. Those facts as presennted in the WT publications over decades demonstarate that 537 BCE is the only p;ossible date that accommodates all relevant factors namely the acknowledgement of the reign of Darius, the first year of Cyrus counts from Nisan, journey home, and that the end of the seventy years was synchronistic with Cyrus' first year and not at Babylon's Fall.

You have proved nothing but your fantasy that 538 BCE is the date for ignores relevant matters of history for all that you have done is sketched a model or calendation. Mason proves that there are are no models that work according to his bias against the WT. It is that same bias that prevents you from acknowledge those simple historicisms that are only acknowledged by the 'celebrated' ones.

scholar JW

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Alan F

Post 5063

At last you are here; You have big problem with Doug Mason because you dogmatically assert that 538 BCE was the date of the Return whereas Mason asserts in his thesis 'By the Rivers of Babylon: The Jews Return Home, June 2007, p.2 "No one knows exactly when the Jews returned to their homeland/ It possibly happened in 536 BCE but it could have been as late as 535 BCE". So much for the apostate date 538 BCE!!!!

When the careful research of the celebrated WT scholars is ignored then confusion abounds as well demonstrated by the above.

scholar JW

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Doug Mason

History is not iperfect and even the Bible does contain all of the facts that we moderns demand of such a record. Chronology is not an exact scienc ebut must rely on documents or an imperfect record so as to provide a framework in which the reader cam understand that record. Regarding the history of the Return there are some details that we simply do not know and one must make certain assumptions in order to utilize what data or facts are available. In this case we have two basic facts namely that the Decree was made in the first year of the reign of Cyrus which most if not all authoriies agree ran from Nisan 538 to Nisan 537 BCE. The other fact is that the Jews returned home by the seventh month but it is not stated in what year.

I have consulted much information concerning this event of the Return and all of these authorities make assumptions as does the WT writers so that is the nature of the beast however our approach using all of the available evidence 'proves' that 537 BCE was the year of the Return. In your thesis you develop a number of scenarios to show that the WT model is unprovable and you too use assumptions but you prouce no result.

I believe that what the WT society has written on this subject over many decades and encompasssing all facts and assumptions have well and truly proven their case. Carl Jonsson who is a much more thorough critic of WT chronology and the sacred date of 607 BCE has left 537 BCE more or less alone. If he felt for one moment that the WT was 'weak' in this specific matter then he would have exploited this grevious error to the full. At best he finds in favour of 538 BCE which differs from your 'probable' 536 or 535 BCE. You are the onlyperson that I am aware of who has spent so much research on this subject and I have been involve with chronology for nearly forty years.

I cannot add more to this matter than what has already been published by 'celebrated' WT scholars but I can vigourosly defend their position. In my opinion 537 BCE is provable and is the precise year for the Return which in turn leads to 607 BCE as the precise year for the Fall of Jerusalem beginning the Gentile Times ending in 1914 CE.

Chronology is imperfect as I have stated but one works with what facts are availabel, adhering to the integrity of God's Word rather than profane secular souces and Holy Spirit which is our Helper, all work together in constructing a chronology that produces faith and inspires prophesying.

There is little value gained by simply 'throwing stones' at something unless you offer something better or thruthful. You say you seek truth then you should produce a result, a precise year for that epochal event is now demanded of you. If you cannot produce the goods then perhaps humbly acknowledge the work of others because truth is found in a community not from an isolated one. Criticism for the sake of criticism is not wisdom but amounts to foolishness even though it appeals to our vain intellect. Wisdom is present with that faithful slave who traditionally established that 537 BCE is the date of the Return despite the darkness that pervades Christendom and her scholars.

scholar JW

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Doug Mason

Post 195

It appears that you have an obsession with the research of the 'celebrated' WT scholars showing that 537 BCE was the date of the Return of the Jewish Exiles for you have now posted two articles 'When Did The Jews Return To Jerusalem?' and 'By The Rivers of Babylon:The Jews Return Home' on your website. Both of the articles offer nothing new as to the precise yearof the Return wherein you admit that "no one really knows for certain which year the Jews returned home"; "It possibly happened in 536 BCE but it could have been as late as 535 BCE"; "Everyone else...does not know".

These are most intriquing statements because apostates do know or pretend to know that precise year because they are confident that 538 BCE is that very date. Carl Jonsson advocates 538 and so does a follower of Jonsson namely Alan F who both promote 538 the former with reservation and the latter with dogmatism. As I have inquired earlier I am somewhat perplexed why you have not bothered to consult Jonsson's research on WT chronology as he also like you offers information regarding calendation which you utilize in discussing when Cyrus' 'first year' should be placed. Further, Jonsson when advocating his nominated 538 BCE uses similar assumptive language as does the WT writers when advocating 537 BCE. For example, in that aforementioned footnote, Jonsson employs such expressions as "If Ezra", "Most likely","The context seems to imply","he may have reckoned", so if it was necessay for Jonsson to employ such terms in order for him to advocate 538 BCE then your criticism of WT writers is rather most unfair and dishonest.

Jonsson on page 303 ftn.44 makes the following: "Most commentators end the seventy years with the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE, with Cyrus' decree in 538 BCE, with the return of the first Jewish remnant to Palestine in 538 or 537 BCE,(Ezra 3:1,2),or with the commencing of the reconstruction of the temple in 536 (Ezra 3:8-10). Next he cites a reference work by Professor Payne in his Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy. This authority clearly attests to that 538 as to the year of the Decree and 537 as the year of the Return.

Now to return to your thesis.My problem with your approach is that you dwell on the omission of facts that are vital in completing a full account of the Return, The Bible gives us two basic facts; 1. The Decree was issued in the 'first year of Cyrus' -Ezra 1:1. This would be his first regnal year as attested by Josephus who refers to the 'first year of the reign of Cyrus'. - Antiquities Of The Jews, Book 11, Chapter 1:1. This 'first regnal year' according to Jack Finegan in his handbook Of Bible Chronology,1964, p.170 was 538/537 BCE which ran from Nisan 538 to Nisan 537 BCE. 2. The Jews had returnetd home and were resettled by the seventh month Tishri according to Ezra 3:1 but we are not told whether this occurred in Cyrus' first or second year.

Scholars including the celebrated ones need to complete a chronology for the Return and must factor in the following:

1. The proclamation and promulgation of the Decree throughout the kingdom

2. Temple contributions to be arranged

3.Preparations for the journey

4. Length of journey from Babylon to Jerusalem.

Whether the reign of Cyrus was commensurate with that of Darius or followed after his reign it is easily seen that the Jews would have returned by Tishri of 537 especially if the first full year of Cyrus ran from Nisan 1, 537 BCE to the end of Adar 536 BCE, or about March 12, 537 to March 29, 536 BCE, Julian calender or March 6, 537 to March 23, 536 BCE, Gregorian calender.

scholar JW

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Doug Mason

As I said previously your article offers nothing new on this subject by way of your research as to the precise date for the Return so what you have written is simply WT bashing. You base your criticism on certain assumptions that the celebrated WT scholars find necessary in order to compute the date for the Return. These assumptions are used and recognized by all scholars and historians who have written on this subject and this is proven by the fact that there are different dates for this event proposed by such authorities.

I am amazed that you have not consulted Jonsson's research for he has published such relevant material over the last twenty years and his footnote on this subject has been published since 1998. This footnote uses similar assumptions as the 'celebrated ones' and in fact he uses an authority that supports 537 rather than 538 BCE which is the 'apostate date' favoured by him.

scholar JW

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Doug Mason

Post 186

You request an opinioin regarding your research on the subject of the Society's research establishing 537 BCE for the date of the Return of the Jewish Exiles which fact is essential for an accurate Bible chronology. Your article titled 'When Did The Jews Return To Jerusalem' is just a piece of WT 'bashing' offering no alternative date for the Return but simply hones in on certain assumptions made by celebrated WT scholars that the Decree was made by the spring of 537 BCE.

You admit no reference to Jonsson's pitiful research on this subject expressed by means of a mere footnote* which he also is forced to make similar expressions as does the WT writers as to the first year of Cyrus and the timing of the Decree wherein he uses similar assumptive expressions. The simple facts are that scholars cannot be dogmatic as to the precise date of Cyrus' first year and when the edict or decree was made. Scholars such as the 'celebrated ones' and other historians simply have to use what evidence is available both secular and biblical and make certain assumptions or interpretations in order to make a history or chronology. In short, JW'S are confident that both the secular evidence and Ezra clearly establish that 537 BCE and not 538 BCE is the date of the Return.

* C arl O. Jonsson in The Gentile Times Reconsidered, 2004, 4th edn.,p.90, ftn.2.

scholar JW

89

Is WTS chronology flawed?

by cultswatter in

historians agree that jerusalem was invaded by babylon in 586/587bce.

the wts discredits most historical records and says that jerusalem was invaded in 607bce.

the wts start with 587 and add the 70 years that jerusalem lay desolate to obtain the 607 date.. if jerusalem was invaded in 587 then it lay desolate for only 50 years (587-537=50).

scholar

jeanV

Post 177

Correct, Furuli is not a scholar in ancient history but he is a scholar of Semitic Studies and is thus well qualified to deal with the primary sources of Neo-Babylonian chronology. Jonsson is not a scholar of anything and I am unaware of so called 'experienced ones' as scholars without the academic qualifications behind them in the field of chronology.

He does deal with those documents in his book and will further explore the issues raised by you in more depth in his next volume so if you read his current book you will have your questions answered.

scholar JW