Posts by scholar

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

I am well pleased with our on-going dialoque concerning the date 537 BCE for the Return. You have for the first time caused me to investigate this matter thoroughly for over the last six years I have spent considerable research for this forum on the seventy years, I have done that subject 'to death' so it is time for a new project. There are still some loose ends in conncection with this topic and as soon as I get time off work I will consult all of the commentaries on Ezra and relevant scholarly journals, this is my usual practice and this is what I did with the 'seventy years '.

I do concur that the date 537 BCE is essential for our chronology, theology including that of prophecy but it is not a mere date by itself that is significant but the history of the event behind that date that is truly significant and this factor is our strongest defence for that calcuable, traditional date for the Return. My research thus far and I repeat that it is a 'work in progress' convinces me that 'celebrated 'WT scholars have proved beyond any reasonable doubt the validity of 537 BCE and it is this position that I seek to defend to the best of my ability.

I do not believe that there is any link between Josephus and Ezra 3:8 with the exception that both statements deal with the time of laying ogf the Temple foundations and it will be interesting to test this with current scholarship. Both writers may have used different dating systems so this needs to be further explored and I will keep you informed about any such possible synchronism.

I do believe that Ezra has posiively identified the year of the Return by the simple fact that he omits any other year excepting the calender month of the Return. Common sense would surely indicate that Return was impossible in year of the Return but would be only in the following Tishri. This would allow sufficient time for the Decree to be proclaimed, Journey preparations, a four month trek and resettlement in Jerusalem. Yes, I agree with you that there are many "If only Ezra..." but Jehovah God inspired Ezra what to write down and record for that generation and the future generations details essential for history, fulfillment of prophecy and faith.

I welcome any study that deals with the termination of the seventy years and as you scholars are perplexed about this matter. Wiley poztates under the tutelage of Carl Jonsson believe that the seventy years ended with Babylon's Fall but this is errant nonsense as Josephus, Ezra and Daniel all together show that the seventy years ended at the Return in 537 BCE. Our critics go to laughable lengths to prove their case but they do violence to the Biblical Record. Such views often result in multiple 'seventy year' periods rather than a single historic period of Exile in Babylon- Servitude to Babylon and the Desolation of Judah. I will respond to your next post tomorrow and I have to attend also to Alan F's nonsense as well.

scholar JW

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Alan F

Post 5077

I am entitled to defend and advocate whatever model I choose and I have chosen the model traditionally adopted by the celebrated WT scholars concerning the validity of 537 BCE as the only possible date for the Return.

You say that their model is based on nothing but speculation. This is sheer nonsense, it is based upon facts attested by scholars and relevant scriptures. Certainly a degree of uncertainty is involved but this is the nature of the historical record and we have to work with what we have. Your model also indicates speculation in which you carefully disguise.

I believe our model because it is well proven and is far superior to any others that I have examined including yours. Your model fails for the following reasons:

1. Fails to account for the reign of Darius

2. Compresses the time necessary from your speculative time for the Decree until the Return allowing for a mere six months which is does not give sufficient time for the proclamation of that Decree.

3. You speculate that the Decree was issued in the first month of the first year but there is no evidence for this as Ezra does not give the month in which the Decree was proclaimed.

4. You speculate that the Jews arrive in Judah by the sixth month namely Elul which Ezra does not specify.

Your model is simply one of many and if you truly believe it then you should get Jonsson to referee it and then submit it for publication in a scholarly journal so that the international community of scholars and benefit from Alan F's new found wisdom.

I reject all other models because these do not work, are false to history and do not account for the termination of the seventy years celebrated at the Return in the seventh month.

scholar JW

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Doug Mason

Post 203

If you truly enjoy our discussion then behave yourself or I will terminate my conversation with you and converse only with Alan F.and Jeffro when he is on board.

You ask a question about Ezra 3:8 which my research at the present simply indicates that the second month of the second yearof their coming to the house of the true God which is locate in the following year in the spring of 536 with the laying of the temple foundation. My research shows no reason to change this opinion for in fact the NIV Bible in the footnote indicates that year could have commenced with Nisan rather than Tishri in the year 537 BCE. I plan to examine thorughly what scholarship has to say on the meaning of this verse before advancing a solid opinion on the matter. Have you made such a thorough examination of the exegesis of this most important verse? If not then you should and so shoud Alan F.

I do not have a model but I agree with the model presented by the celebrated WT scholars presented in numerous publications over the last five decades and it is this model that I believe is correct. Other models presented by yourself and others including Alan F, I reject because these omit the reign of Darius and defy 'common sense'.

I reject your assertion that the first year of Cyrus was of Tishri reckoning rather scholarship is unaminous that the first year of Cyrus used by Ezra was counted from the spring and ran from Nisan 538 to Nisan 537 BCE and there are good reasons why Ezra must have used the Nisan reckoning in this instance. I also reject your assertion concerning my misuse of Darius for I fully concur with our stated concerning Darius as an important in the determination of the precise year for the Return in 537 BCE.

Tishri was the seventh lunar month of the sacred calender but the first of the secular calender used by the Israelites.

I am not troubled by the fact that scholars and those who presented the information in the NIV Bible used the word 'probably' in determing which month the Jews left Babylon. The Bible simply does not give us all of the data so we have use those facts that are available and construct an intelligible history of those events and when this is done it is plainly proved that the Jews returned home by the seventh month of the year 537 BCE which the NiV agrees by means of that chart. and that in the second month of 536 BCE the foundations of the temple were laid. This is exactly what the celebrated WT scholars have told you.

This does not mean that we accept everything that this NIV Bible says on chronology because other matters that you have raised are subject of much dispute and we have an alternative view. If this is a 'pick and choose' then so be it for we are not concerned. Christendom's scholars including SDA's get some things right but many wrong and those correct matters we embrace and utilize which is the nature of scholarship.

At the end of your post you ask impertinent questions which I will not respond publicly. Leave me your telephone number for I will ring you and answer you privately. That is the fair and decent thing to do. Are you up for it?

scholar JW

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Doug Mason

Post 202

Whatever the origin of the 536 BCE may be it must be remembered that Russell would have consulted numerous sources for the chronology adopted by him and presented in the Society's publcations. This does not mean that he accepted everything but being daithful to the Scriptures he was able to present a true Bible chronology that in broad terms has well served Bible Students right up to the present day.

Hatton's research is not new and really is rather trivial and I would be happy to respond to his analysis at some other time as it is a different subject to what we are discussing.

Celebrated WT scholars have plainly stated the reasons and method for the 537 BCE and I can add little to what they have already published. This does not mean that there is no need for further research and Alan F has raised the matter of Josephus and along with Ezra 3:8 would require further work on my part which I plan to do. For example, I have only consulted a few commentaries in my personal library on Ezra 3:8 and it is my plan to go to Moore Theological Library and consult every commentary on tis verse as well as the Josephus text when I have a day off work. I have no plans to abandon this matter and let me assure you that my research thus far has consolidated my view that 537 BCE is the only possible date for the Return. My reading thus far has alerted me to some journal articles that I need to consult and this also will be executed.

You speak of a so-called dilemna that WT writer's acceptance of 539 BCE and the non-acceptance of other dates established by that same secular chronology. This is a 'furfy' and simply rehashes Jonssson's winging and whining over a similar protestation. It is simply a matter of methodology and if a chronologist seeks to discriminate between different dates and explains his reason then that is simply scholarship at bits very best. WT scholars have the right to exercise their own preferred methodology and too bad if it offends the 'simple' ones.

I referred you to Finegan's work on chronology and if it is the truly the case that you have spent forty years on chronology then Why have you not got a copy of Finegan in your library? Get a copy from Avondale College at Cooranbong, NSW.

I stronglly object to the misrepresentations made by Hatton and my friend Bruce Price and I object to such comments being made public on this form as I believe this invades my privacy and I request that you observe the guidelines for posting on this forum. If you have questions regarding Hatton, Price and myself then this can be discussed privately. I believe that such conduct is unChristian and is simply a ruse to change the subject which is typical of apostaes and our critics.

scholar JW

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Doug Mason

Post 201

You seem concerned about my 'bona fide' let me assure that my credentials are genuine. I am no double agent or opposer and you examine this matter by reading my posting history for the last six years and contacting Bruce Price.

You seem to be duped by Alan F's nonsense in trying to establish that 538 BCE is the precise date for the Return of which your research has yielded no such fruit. Alan's nonsense is based on some assumptions as you read carefully his argument in his post 4611. He concludes without any evidence that the 'second year of the reign of Cyrus' according to Josephus was a regnal year counting from Nisan. I would argue that this is false and that such regnal year was counted form Tishi rather than Nisan.

This means that Josephus' second year of Cyrus is identical to that "second yearof their coming to the house of the true God in Jerusalem, in the second month" - Ezra 3:8 NWT. which Ezra as with Josephus counted from the Fall of the year, Tishri and not the spring, Nisan. This means that Ezra and Josephus both used the sacred calender in reference to events such as the laying of the Temple foundation. Therefore, the year in which the second month fell was 536 BCE following some six months after their return home by the seventh month of 537 BCE. This model combines harmonizes all the facts beginning with the fundamental fact the the 'first year of Cyrus' a regnal year begiining from Nisan from 538 BCE to Nisan 537 BCE.

This model nicely agrees with Jack Finegan's Handbook Of Biblical Chronology - Revised Edition,1998,pp.179-180,para.329-330.

Obviously, there will be some criticism of this model which answers Alan F's problem and I have already anticpated some objections and will defend this position vigously. My model is a 'rough draft' and is a work in progress but as the debate continues on this subject then I will do some fine tuning but in short, Alan's mistake is that he assumes that Josephus used the Nisan calendation rather than the Tishri calendation in his Against Apion 1.21.

Enjoy!!!

scholar JW

Enjoy!

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Doug Mason

Post 200

One moment you ask for proof for 537 BCE and now you move the goal posts as to the source for this date.The date of the Return has a long tradition and one can ro right back to James Ussher whose chronology appeared in the margin of the Authorized Version. During the time of Russelll 536 BCE was the traditional date and this was presented by many expositors whose research was used by those early Bible Students. Ptolemy's Canon was a source of chronology and its benefits/weaknesses were known to those early Bible writers.

Many dates were revised and discarded and this was because of 'fine tuning' as understanding of prophecy and the fundamentals of chronology such as the zero year became known and this is the way of things.

I am very familiar with Hatton's nonsense on chronology and like you offers no coherent answers to the seventy years nor to a precise date of the Return, Hatton's comments on the matter as to the source of 536 used by Russell is interesting but that is all. This matter is a separate issue which I will leave for another time.

Let us not not 'muddy the waters' which is typical apostate strategy by changing the topic when the going gets tough for your posted heading is not about the historical sources but when did the Jews return home?

scholar JW

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Doug Mason

Post 199

Physics shows that heat and light go together and exist separately.

Celebrated WT scholars have well and truly proven that 537 BCE was and is the only possible date for the Return setting out such evidence in WT publications over many decades. These facts are familiar to you as you have provided such in your recent articles. It is pleasing that you have an open mind on this subject so I will be providing information on this matter dealing with the so-called tie-breaker with Josephus and Ezra 3:8.

In some sense, Neo-Babyloian chronology is a 'test' of WT biblical chronology but I prefer to consider the former more of an independent witness to the validity of the latter because secular, profane Neo-Babylonian chronology falls a mere twenty years short of biblically established dates such as 607 BCE. The reason for this small gap is that this chronology omits history failing to consider the seventy years of exile-desolation and servitude.

I will be dealing with the fact that the first year of Cyrus should be counted from Nisan rather than Tishri in my response to Alan F's nonsense so keep watching. The reign of Darius is very important in the context of establishing a date for the Return because his reign is linked to the termination of the seventy years in which Cyrus' Decree permitted the Jews to return home by the seventh month in 537 BCE. The reign of Darius may have been commensurate with the first year of Cyrus or intervened between the Fall of Babylon and the first year of Cyrus.

You seem to be spooked by the zero-year problem but what you fail to realize is that is was the celebrated WT scholars who first drew attention to scholars that an adjustment was require for it was the case in the earlier decades of the last century that scholars had made this error. Our chronology was then 'fine' tuned' by the 'celedbrated ones' demonstrating that chronology is always a work in progress.

When P&D was first published in the early forties it was of great benefit to the 'celebrated ones' who since then have made good use of this piece of scholarship to the chagrin of critics and apostates.

You request a diagram and I am happy to oblige forthwith: NIV Study Bible, 10th Anniversary Edition, 1995, p.667.

nb. Please note the scriptural references Ezra 3:1; 3:8

It can hardly be said that the said 'scholar' has been dancing around the doorknob as I have been arguing matters of chronology in some depth on this board for the last five years and have dealt with every objection in full excepting for the Alan F query as previously mentioned. Besides you well know the methodology of the WT's 537 date and the evidence for it so I do not intend to repeat what you already have presented. What I will do is to present additional information bearing on the matter which deals with Alan F's little difficulty. This is the second timeI have helped him with a problem

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

hilary_step

Let me assure you that scholar is not backed into any corner but is fully and willing to tackle those critics of our sacred biblical chronology and one laughs at those pitiful efforts of aspostates whose main aim purpose in life is to seek mischevious ways to discredit this chronology.

Jehovah's Witnesses are champions of truth and integrity which even the world recognizes even though it fails to discern the 'true religion'. Our chronology is simply based on God's true inspired Word and has nothing to do with cultish thinking for in fact it is our enemies and critics who enslave to the cult of personality by following blindly the teachings, falsehoods, lies and misrepresentations of apostates.

I have no interest in Mormons and such whacky theories but only in the whacky theory of Neo-Babylonian chronology which ignores the most important piece of biblical history namely Jeremiah's seventy years of exile-servitude and desolation.So there!!!!!!!

scholar JW

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Doug Mason

Post 197

Your comments demand a reply. You are partially correct when you say that the WT's adoption of 537 BCE is traditional or owes itself merely to some 'tradition'. In fact, as 586 BCE rather than the 'apostate' date of 587 has become the traditional date for the Fall within current scholarship so it is the case with 537 BCE for the Return. This widespread endoresement of this date is due to the research methodology which the 'celebrated' Wt scholars first brought to the attention of the scholarly community in 1949. This nicely followed the publication of Babylonian Chronology 626 BC-AD 45 by Richard Parker and Waldo h. Dubberstein in 1942 and 1946 respectively anticpated by the 'celebrated' and fully utilzed by them in the 'fine tuning ' of Bible chronology.

It is your position that is 'feeble' because your research offers nothing new, no fresh insights offering no precise date for the Fall for all you achieve is simply a biased criticism of a widely held traditional date well crafted on the basis of history by the 'celebrated ones'.

You say that the date is inconsequential to you which is rather dishonest because you have spent much time on this subject having already posted major articles on your website relating to this very matter so who are you trying to fool?

scholar JW

73

When DID the Jews return?

by Doug Mason in

the wts says that the key date in the jews return from babylon is tishri 1 537 bce.. the wts uses that date to arrive at its incorrect date of 607 bce for the destruction of jerusalem.

in turn, its 607 bce date is used to provide the date of october 1914 ce for christs parousia and the setting up of gods kingdom government.

the wts claims to be the sole representative upon earth of gods kingdom.. the date of the jews return is thus crucial to the watchtower societys (wts) existence and authority.

scholar

Alan F

Post 5064

In matters of chronology any so called 'proof' is relative to methodology and interpretation of history so yes you have 'proved' that 538 BCE is the date for the Return just as 'celebrated' WT scholars have also 'proved' that 537 BCE is tthat date. Similarly, Mason has also proved that there is no 'proof' for any date whatsoever.

Why not just stick to the basic facts and those assumptions that are made necessary in order to historize the Return. Those facts as presennted in the WT publications over decades demonstarate that 537 BCE is the only p;ossible date that accommodates all relevant factors namely the acknowledgement of the reign of Darius, the first year of Cyrus counts from Nisan, journey home, and that the end of the seventy years was synchronistic with Cyrus' first year and not at Babylon's Fall.

You have proved nothing but your fantasy that 538 BCE is the date for ignores relevant matters of history for all that you have done is sketched a model or calendation. Mason proves that there are are no models that work according to his bias against the WT. It is that same bias that prevents you from acknowledge those simple historicisms that are only acknowledged by the 'celebrated' ones.

scholar JW