Posts by scholar

421

70 years = 607?

by allelsefails in

70 years of captivity?.

i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.

that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.

There is no need for any endorsement by scholars or a scholar to support the validity of 607 BCE for it is a fact that scholars have to date no uniform date for the Fall as some say 588, 587 or 586 BCE so there is some fluidity in this matter. The counting backwards is a legitimate method of doing chronology which is in harmony with tabulated events and dates after all chronology is a scheme after all so events are placed in the stream of time so as one can in either direction.

Josephus sets out the history of matters and this supports the historicity of the Bible in connection with the events of the seventy years between the Fall and the Return so it does provide an independent witness of our interpretation of matters.

Chronologists of all persuasions select their own methodology and we have selected ours which provides a chronology consistent with all of the data both secular and biblical. There is no room for cultishness in pursuit of accurate knowledge for we leave that to apostates.

Real scholars even those who rely on the records of Neo-Babylonian chronologies must use Pivotal Dates in order to assign dates to those regnal of king lists. Pivotal or Absolute Dates goes with the terrritory.

It is methodology alone which permits the 'celebrated' WT scholars to select 539 BCE rather than other dates so it comes down to a arbitrary choice of which they are entitled to do.

You give me a challenge but I offer you one. You prove to me as to what precise year Jerusalem fell.

It is no good quoting from Wiki because I can cite numerous scholars who say it was 586 BCE and not 587 BCE for the Fall so you have a big problem.

scholar JW

421

70 years = 607?

by allelsefails in

70 years of captivity?.

i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.

that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.

scholar

Mary

Post 10696

The Kingdom of God described in Daniel 4 could not be the Babylonian Kingdom because how could Daniel confess to something that he had already boasted about and his Kingdom was hardly an everlasting kingdom which was also he had to admit. Further, Neb himself referred to that kingdom as 'His kingdom; referring to the Most High God.

You should take advice on the grammatical form of 'will be trampled' so as you can understand the precise verbal aspect of this construction.

Scholar does not deal in crap for he leaves such dirty business to mindless apostates but concentrates on the healthful teaching of God's Word of Truth.

The names of scholars who dicusss the eschatology of Luke are many but I refer you to Robert Maddox, Howard Marshall and C.H.Giblin for starters but I can most certainly expand this list if required.

Your'e outa here so good riddance!

scholar JW

421

70 years = 607?

by allelsefails in

70 years of captivity?.

i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.

that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.

scholar

Mary

Post 10695

You should be kind to scholar!

If God's Kingdom has nothing to do with Daniel 4 then Why is it mentioned so often in the account? Pray tell!

The trampling of Jerusalem and the Gentile times both run concurrently and began in the past according to the grammatical form of the verb used by Luke. Also, Jerusalem in this Lucan context was typical of something far beyond that literal city as admitted by theologians and scholars and I have drawn attention to such studies in a previous post to Leolaia. So that 'trampling' theologically speaking began in 607 BCE when God's typical Kingdom was overthrown by Nebuchadnezzer as prophesied in Dan.4.

You are a person that only wants to see what is diectly in front of you with no apparent interesti in understanding God's Word so the deeper things of God's Word are meaninglless to you. Certainly Luke does deal with events that befell Jerusalem up until 70 CE but the background of that particular verse and its immediate context is regarded by Bible scholars as eschatological which is very much thematic with Luke whose book along with Acts is concerned with salvation history.

scholar JW

421

70 years = 607?

by allelsefails in

70 years of captivity?.

i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.

that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.

scholar

AllTime Jeff

Post 1547

The evidence for 607 BCE is simply fact that 539 BCE fell in 539 BCE as attested by scholarship followed by the establishment of 537 BCE as the date for the Jewish Exiles under Cyrus as confirmed by Ezra and other archaeological evidence for the Decree of Cyrus in his first year. This Return ended the prophesied 70 year period of Exile-Desolation-Servitude in 607 BCE with the Destruction of Jerusalem in the 11th year of Zedekiak and the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzer. The facts concerning the 70 years are described by Ezra, Daniel, Jeremiah and Zechariah are attested by the testimony of Josephus. This is just a simple overview of the subject.

As you acknowledge scholars including the 'celebrated' WT scholars need to rely on Pivotal Dates or Absolute in order to do chronology but the selection of such dates varies from scholar to scholar. Our scholars have selected 539 BCE as the best choicemuch to the chagrin of apostates. The use of 539 BCE is based on a selected methodology which is the basis of any scheme of chronology but provides surety for the determination of 607 BCE.

scholar JW

421

70 years = 607?

by allelsefails in

70 years of captivity?.

i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.

that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.

scholar

Mary

Post 10694

Methinks Mary is not happy with scholar!

Proof of the fact that Daniel 4 has a major fulfillment is the very theme of the chapter which introduces the chapter and is part of Neb's confession and that is God's Kingdom. The link between Luke 21:24 are two periods of time: the trampling of Jerusalem and the Gentile Times. Further, there is use of the word 'times' featured in both Luke and Daniel and finally there is the fact the Jerusalem in typified in Luke and was typfied by the 'tree' as the typical Kingdom of God on earth, the kingdom of Judah with its Davidic Monarchy. So we have at least 3 sound reasons to prove the matter.

I have refuted Leolaia's hypothesis or at least I am not persuaded by it and no doubt we will continue to contend the matter.

Scholar is a great believer in facts and evidence and has been faithful in this matter over the last eight years and will continue to pursue truth in all its glory.

scholar JW

54

The Governing Body's REAL critical date

by Doug Mason in

russell taught that 1914 ce would bring in an unprecedented era of peace.

in 1930, rutherford moved russells date of the parousia from 1874 to 1914. .

thus until 1930 not one follower had recognised the currently ascribed significance in heaven to the time that corresponds to 1914 on our earth.

scholar

AllTimeJeff

Post 1545

Your studies at Gilead although meritorious does not make you an expert in eschatology, nor does it make you an expert in WT History and Theology. F W Franz was a brilliant scholar and theologian and he made some mistakes such as 1975 but regarding the staus of earlier dates these were the povenance of the 'celebrated' WT scholars. As all of these fellows were human thus mistakes are the nature of things and it is by making mistakes that we learn and are disciplined by God. It is those mistakes whether in Chronology and Theology that serve as 'stepping stones' in the pursuit of truth. It is those 'mistakes' that are part and parcel of our Christian heritage and serve as a witness that Jehovah has raised up a body of people to carry out His will during these 'End -Times'. Did you learn this at Gilead?

The evidence for 607 BCE for the Fall of Jeruselem is overwhelming from not only a biblical viewpoint but also from a secular/historical point of view. Apostates have done much to discredit our sacred chronology but their so-called 'scholarly 'efforts has failed miserably.

The 1260 days and 1919 are proven true biblically by means of the book of Revelation and the Pauline Epistles and conform with the facts of modern history during that early period of the 20th century. The Governing Body is nothing more than a administrative authority for they are subject to the FDS who alone are given the responsibility of providing spirtual food, the GB is simply an agency for the FDS.

scholar JW

421

70 years = 607?

by allelsefails in

70 years of captivity?.

i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.

that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.

scholar

AnnOMaly

Post 957

Your two tabulations highlight the problems involved with chronology so that is why is far wiser to pay attention to the research made by the 'celebrated' WT scholars who have written much on this subject harmonizing all of the secular, biblical and historical data.

scholar JW

421

70 years = 607?

by allelsefails in

70 years of captivity?.

i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.

that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.

scholar

AnnOMaly

Post 958

Your point about ignoring advances in Bible scholarship with some discoveries in the 1870's is rather trite. Perhaps it was felt that such discoveries did not have much impact on the interpretation of Bible History and Bible Prophecy to have any significance. Bible chronology over that period was still progressing right up to the time of Martin Anstey who published his The Romance Of Bible Chronology in 1913. In that work Anstey traces the history of Chronology right up to the late 1800's and there was very little research published during that period so that means any new developments of that period had to wait some time for its employment.

scholar JW

421

70 years = 607?

by allelsefails in

70 years of captivity?.

i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.

that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.

scholar

Mary

Post 10893

As I thought the apostates even though on the winning side are scared.

In the broad stream of discussion interpretation is opinion, we say that our interpretation is based on certain facts and on Scripture thus the matter is 'proved' for all intents and purposes. Scholar has ably demonstrated the 'proof' of 607 BCE and shown in a rational way theat Neb's dream vision of Dan.4 has a minor and major fulfillment as shown by the context and the frequent use of the word 'Kingdom' which is eschatological. It is all there in the mix.

I agree my opinion by itself counts for nothing and neither does yours or anyone elses for that matter, What does matter is what God's Word states and our teachings/interpretations are soundly based on that firm foundation as you well know. You keep asserting that scholar has provided no proof but how do you explain the fact that scholar is actively present in defending, answering questions, explaining and refuting points that are raised on this subject for the last eight years? Scholar has been very busy indeed as he does not deal with fluff, fantasy but substance.

The fact is that many scholars today perhaps the majority regard Daniel as being fulfilled during the Maccabean period thus being unable to appreciate its value as prophecy. That is a simple fact as shown by consulting reference works and commentaries. This is something you should look into for yourself.

Our faith does not depend on any date how can it be the case when that numerical figure does not appear in the Bible! The date 1914 is calculated from an interpretation of a prophecy which is Biblical and that is the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24 and the tree dream of Daniel 4. Thus, our faith is based on an interpretation of biblical prophecy part of God's Word and that is how things should and must be.

Many on this board are without faith and I can see this from past and experience, one prominent example of this is Alan F who long contended with me on chronology and admitted on this very forum his atheism/agnosticism. The very fact that there are those who oppose divine and godly teaching as proclaimed by His Witnesses is proof of the fact that those who have left the Truth are indeed without faith. Further, such 'bedarkened' one have no unified teaching, broitherhood or ministry is proof of the matter.

scholar JW

54

The Governing Body's REAL critical date

by Doug Mason in

russell taught that 1914 ce would bring in an unprecedented era of peace.

in 1930, rutherford moved russells date of the parousia from 1874 to 1914. .

thus until 1930 not one follower had recognised the currently ascribed significance in heaven to the time that corresponds to 1914 on our earth.

scholar

Wobble

Post 1067

The theologians that you speak of are known biblically as the 'faihtful and discreet slave', the collective body of anointed ones known as the Church or the Body of Christ. These ones are the channel or instrument required to interpret Holy Scriptures and to preach the Gospel.

Yes I agree with you that personal reading of Scripture and prayer are vital aspects of Christian devotion and worship but a Christian by definition is not a solitary being but is part of a collective so being a Christian is being part of a community wherein one finds fellowship and a greater understanding of matters. Jehovah through His Word reveals His matters not an individual but through His Church which has always been the case from the earliest of times.

scholar JW