Posts by scholar

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

scholar

Jeffro

Post 4219

the simple fact of the matter is that the concept of Exile is problematic for your hypothesis on this key portion of biblical history. Jeremiah 27 and 29 both were directly addressed to the exiled people of the first deportation and as subsequent events as described by Jeremiah later included a much larger group of detainees or exiles who were all part of the EXILE. There was then a composite group residing in Babylon from shortly after the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE right through until the Return to Judah in 537 BCE. Therefore this proves that the seventy years was indeed a period of Exile.

Insults do not trouble me at all but merely reflect your character and desperation in trying to enforce your interpretations onto gullible minds. LOL

The very fact of Judah' serving' nebuchadnezzer is the very proof that in accord with both Jeremiah ch 27 and ch 29 of the Exile in Babylon for both go' hand to hand' together.

All scholars have acertain bias and I did not say that Albertz or the Society of Biblical Literature supports WT chronology but what Albertz has written for he is a specialist on the subject of the Exile, bases his discussion on the Exile proper from the Fall not from the first golah.

I leave it others to imagine about my motives, methodology or quality of argument for I simply care nought but what I do know that I keep you on your toes.

Also I checked Martin Anstey's Romance of Bible Chronology and his outline of Hoshea's reign and the Interregnum agres with that of WT scholars.

scholar JW

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

scholar

AnnOMaly

Post 3783

The audience that received the word of Jehovah as recorded in Jeremiah 29 were in fact those exiles of the first deportation as I have already stated and they were now in exile in Babylon or other places such as Ezekiel. This prophecy also states that the time would come for their release from Exile and that Exile ended with the Return of the whole population in 537 BCE the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE. The simple fact of the matter is that there was a body of exiled people in Babylon as a result of Nebuchadmezzer's incursions into Jerusalem and all of these had to await the fulfillment of the seventy years otherwise you have several Exiles which of course becomes ridiculous.

scholar JW

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

scholar

Jeffro

Post 4218

Jeremiah 27 has absolutely nothing to with your hypothesis, it explicitly states that the nations and Judah would be brought into servitude to Nebuchadnezzer concluding the chapter with restoration, an end to their exile in Babylon whereupon the utensils and the people would be brought back home. No one is denying that the surrounding nations were made to serve Babylon but the seventy years alone proved to be aperiod of servitude-exile and deolation of Judah.

Albertz does not waffle, he does not need to waffle in his 460 page analysis of the this most crucial period of Jewish history- The Exile. His book is published by the prestigious Society of Biblical Literature. Jeffro is infuriated and frustrated when scholar educates him into various areas of scholarship that he chooses to ignore when ranting and raving about the wondrous WT Bible Chronology.

scholar JW

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

scholar

Jeffro

Post 4217

Jeremiah 25:11 is quite self explanatory for it simply describes 'servitude to Babylon' for seventy years not Babylon's domination. Servitude is a core element of the seventy year period which comprises Servitude-Exile-Desolation of Judah. No matter how you spin it it does not work for you.'Serving' can and in the case of this historical narrative it was in fact an Exile for it is described by the eyewitness to the events by the prophet Jeremiah who writes it all up in Jeremiah, Lamentations and of course Daniel and Ezekile both make reference to that catastrophe as an 'Exile'.

The punishment of Judah by Nebuchadnezzer was servitude and exile in Babylon as the history proves.

scholar JW

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

scholar

Ann O Maly

Post 3779

No, the Jewish Exile proper was not at the first deportation of the 'selected ones' of Judah in 617 BCE but the second deportation with the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE. I refer you to Rainer Albertz' Israel In Exile, 2003, on p.2:"Thus it is usual to have the exilic period begin with the destruction of Jerusalem and the final elimination of Judah as a state in 587/586 BCE, even though there was already a golah (group of exiles) in Babylonia in 598/597 BCE, and Gedaliah's attempted reform and a further deportation in 582 still lay in the future.(Jer.52:30) END OF STORY !!!!!!

scholar JW

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

scholar

Jeffro

Post 4215

Serving Babylon in the context of Bible Prophecy and the entire book of Jeremiah most certainly means Exile why in fact does the reference to a 'Exile occur in chapter 29 of the book of Jeremiah wherein it contains many refernces to 'exile' and 'exiled people'. Exile is the very theme of Jeremiah's prophecy and included many deporations during the reign of Nebuchadnezzer. You should read the book on the Exile by Albertz so that your comprehension of this subject is enlarged. The Exile is for Judah not the nations who of course suffered exilic punishment butnot to the same degree as Judah.

scholar JW

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

scholar

Jeffro

Post 4211

Correct for nowhere in Scripture is it expressly stated that there was a 'seventy year exile' but nowhere in Scripture is it expressly stated 'seventy years of Babylon's dominance'.

Your portrayal of the Exile is completely wrong for the Exile major occurred not with the first deportation of Jewry but the bulk of the population with the second deportation at the Fall in 607 BCE. You should read Rainer Albertz' Israel In Exile, 2003 which is the most comprehensive study of the Jewish Exile in modern times. His view agrees with ours but not on chronology but on the historical perspective.

scholar JW

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

scholar

Jeffro

Post 4212

I note your advice about getting the computer checked out. As far as I know I was not infected by a Snap Do browser soft ware nut if I find i will delete it.Any other advice?

Regardless of your opinion I believe the use of the 'corrective' is most appropriate for it all comes down to methodology.

Rodger Young's article has nothing to do with WT chronology but was simply chosen because one text can be used as a corrective in establishing a chronology and resolving the problems that Young listed. For Ezekiel his exile and those with him in Chebar were part of that first deportation so their exile began years earlier than those who were exiled at the Fall as you correctly note.

The context of Jeremiah 29;10 is a prophecy addressed to the then exile people with instructions as to how they were to live out their exile in Babylon. Clearly this first group of exiles would be joined by the bulk of the population after the Fall so altogether the exiled people would have serve Babylon and remain therein for seventy years. The fact that the seventy years was a period to be fulfilled indicates that it was not limited to a earlier smaller group but to the much larger nation as a whole and would be commensurate with the desolation of the land. Jeremiah who later wrote Lamentations and Daniel in his chapter nine of his book reers to the nation as a whole not just to smaller group of elites.

Nevertheless the exile was a fact and was a consequence of their apostasy and rebellion so it came to pass that the Exile proper began with the Fall and ended with the Return and there is no way that this can be argued against.

I have never claimed otherwise for the Bible simply refers to the 'seventy years' or 'seventy years of Jeremiah' so it has to be interpreted in the light of other seventy years texts and against the background of prophecy and of history. We have our interpretation and you have your own. Nor does the Bible speaks of 'seventy years of Babylonish domination' so this simply is your narrow view of the seventy years.

Josephus on only one occasion refers to the seventy years as one of 'fifty' but this anomaly is easily and has been explained.

scholar JW

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

scholar

Jeffro

Post 4211

Does this mean that you deny the Exile, that the Jewish nation was not exiled in Babylon? The fact of the matter is that Jeremiah in Jeremiah 29:10 clearly asserts the fact of the Exile in Babylon for seventy years. All that you are doing is making reference to various deportations of the Jews at different times which does not minimize the fact that the Jews were exiled in Babylon for at least seventy years.

scholar JW

224

Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro in

the 2013 edition of the new world translation renders 2 kings 17:1 as:.

in the 12th year of king ahaz of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king over israel in samaria; he ruled for nine years.. this is in fact a better rendering than the previous nwt, which stated:.

in the twelfth year of ahaz the king of judah, hoshea the son of elah became king in samaria over israel for nine years.. despite their improved rendering, the watch tower society still claims that hoshea's reign 'really' began in 758 bce, but that it was 'established' in the 12th year of ahaz.

scholar

Jeffro

Post 4210

Despite the scam my computer is now running better than ever and I can finally use the latest Internet Explorer which was not previously possible. I have been to the bank and fixed my account and have advised Western Union of the scam. I have also installed the latest Kaspersky version so everything seems to be OK. Now back to business!!!

Yes some intelligence and insight are certainly required and I hope I am up to the task. Arithmetic is necessary but chronology is much more than addition and substraction as I am sure you would agree.

All chronologists proceed upon the certain assumptions and we have have a certain theological viewpoint of history then so be it for chronology is simply an adjunct to history it is not something that stands apart from history. If it is deemed a preconceived numerology by yourself then so be it for being faithful to the prophetic word should be of concern to all Christians.

We believe most firmly as does many famous expositors that Daniel's seventy weeks of years prophecy is Messianic being fulfilled in the appearance and death of our Lord Jesus Christ and we have not distorted the reigns of Persia as you claim but that is another subject for another time.

What I have seen thus far shows that our understanding of Hoshea's reign is correct and I am confident that when I really start to dig I will find further support if I am wrong on this then I will submit an inquiry to Bethel in Brooklyn. But experience with WT chronology over many decades gives me great confidence. What further interest me is the work of Christine Tetley and her research on chronology is very controversial amongst scholars but her book I do not have so I must get a copy and see what she has written. Very excited indeed!!!

I am pleased that you appreciate my use of 'corrective' as a technical term for chronology, in the past I have used the expression 'fine tuning' in order to achieve harmong between our chronology and the secular but I simply appropriated the term from a paper by Rodger C Young 'Ezekiel 40:1 As a Corrective For Seven Wrong Ideas In Biblical Interpreation' in AUSS,2006, vol 44, No.2, pp.265-83. All chronologies have problems for none can be claimed to be infallible, in the case of the Divide Monarchy our chronology is purely' suggestive' but my means of applying the corrective 'seventy years then we have achieved harmonization.

Your criticism of our interpretation of Jeremiah 29:10 is baseless because the context of that chapter clearly shows that the Jewish population or nation as a whole would remain in Babylon for seventy years. We interpret the seventy years as a definite historic period of desolation-servitude-exile whereas you interpret the period only as one of Babylonish domination so according to our interpretation the criticisms that you have raised are rendered baseless as I have explained on this forum endlessly. For us the seventy years commenced in the seventh month 607 BCE with the destruction of Jerusalem and ended with the Return of the Jewish population in the seventh month 537 BCE. During that period the Land of Judah was desolate for seventy years, the Jewish nation was in Exile in Babylon for seventy years under the domination of Babylon as World Power for that same seventy years. In this way all of the seventy texts of Jeremiah, Ezra, Daniel and Zechariah written from different standpoints and times are harmonized and in accordance of the description of the seventy years by Josephus. QED

scholar JW