Posts by scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

johnamos

Indeed Jer.25:11 states that 'all these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years' which included Judah whereupon we have definite historical and biblical facts to show how that proved true chronologically. The Bible simply does not provide the historical details for those other nations even as in the case of Tyre as foretold earlier by Isaiah. In the case of Judah as outlined in the previous pericope as proved by 'this land and its inhabitants',;vs.11'And all this land' there are definitive historical markers which define the 70 period of Babylonish domination from the Fall in 607 until the Return in 537 BCE. In short, these nations all would fall under the 'umbrella 'of Babylonian domination of 70 years.

It is impossible for the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE to be the event that ended the 70 years because both Daniel and Ezra stated that it was not until the reign of Cyrus had begun and that it was only in the 1st year of Darius that the 70 year period had not then been completed.

Further, the choice of 609BCE for the Fall of Assyria to begin the seventy years fails also because the principal features of Jeremiah's seventy years are not applicable. Such features as described by Jeremiah are 1. The land would become desolate 2. The Jewish people would be exiled to Babylon and 3. That Judah would have to serve Babylon. The date 609 BCE's only claim to fame is the arithmetic in that if you subtract 7o years you arrive at 539 BCE which is meaningless. Nothing of historical significance occurred in 609 BCE and that is why COJ considered 605 BCE as a more meaningful candidate for the beginning of the 70 years.

I recognize the fact that most Bible translations render 'for' rather than at' in Jer. 29:10 but it really makes no difference to the history, chronology or theology of the Period under discussion.

Yes, Tyre was one of the nations listed by Jeremiah that would come under judgement but its specifics are unknown as with all other nations listed with the exception of Judah singled out for special attention by Jehovah God.

We cannot say with certainty how Jeremiah's oracles against the other nations applied historically and chronologically except in the case of Judah. However, all of the nations thus specified by Jeremiah fell within the 70 year period of Babylonian domination. In the case of Judah it was foretold and confirmed that a period of 70 years from the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE until the Return in 537 BCE was a period of Servitude to/for Babylon, and Exile in Babylon leaving a totally Desolated Land of Judah'

QED

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

Finkelstein

The celebrated WT scholars are not happy with your comments and neither is the said scholar!!!!!

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

johnamos

Regarding Jer. 29:10 there are other translations that agree with the NWT's rendering of this passage such as the King James Version , Latin Vulgate and the Greek Septuagint LXX. In the reply to Lonsto from the Society it stated that "However, use of the word 'at' or 'in' does not change the number of years given, nor the fact that Babylon took Israelites captive" Further, all that is meant by the use of the preposition 'for' is that the Jewish Exiles were under Babylon's domination or in servitude to Babylon which is what I stated in my initial post.

Yes, WTS and scholar agree that the 70 years are for Babylon namely in SERVITUDE to Babylon in addition also to being a period of EXILE in Babylon whilst the Land of Judah was DESOLATE in combination for 70 years.

The 70 years for Tyre only represent a period of Babylon's domination also we do not know the chronology for the domination of Tyre domination and is not identical with the 70 years of Jeremiah.

Q: When did Jehovah say he would call Babylon to account?

Jer. 25:12 which you only quoted in part states that it was only after the 70 years have been fulfilled. Thus it could not have been in 539 BCE with the Fall of Babylon because Daniel the Prophet who was in Babylon at that time wrote in the 1st year of Darius the Mede who took the kingship of Babylon after its Fall in 539BCE that he then discerned the continuation of the 70 years This fact alone proves that at the time of Babylon's Fall in 539 BCE that the 70 years had not then expired.

Q: What year did Jehovah call Babylon to account? The Bible does not say because nowhere does it state any specific year so that rules out 539 BCE but rather Jer.25:12 describes it rather as a period of judgement over time such as the punishment would be for the king, the nation and the land of the Chaldeans. All of these things occurred after 539 BCE further Jeremiah in the nest verse shows that the land would become desolate and that did not happen in 539 BCE.

The evidence indicates that the 70 years was a period of time of Babylon's domination over Judah with the Jews being deported to Babylon as Exiles leaving the land of Judah totally desolate from 607 BCE with the Fall of Jerusalem until the Return of the Exiles in 537 BCE.

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

Doug Mason

Your answers as follows:

1. The Bible does not provide for the 'moment' the 70 years ended but does provide historical and chronological for its ending: 2 Chron.36:20-23; Ezra 1:1, 3:1. The 'first year of Cyrus and the 'seventh month are described for the end of the period with the Decree of Cyrus and the Return of the Exiles. However, we can express the matter in terms of the Gregorian Calendar as September 29, 537 BCE for the beginning of Tishri, the seventh month or in terms of the Julian Calendar would be October 5. I can consult the tables and get down to the very time of day in hours and minutes based on the Vernal Equinox and Lunations of the Moon for 537 BCE if you so require.

2. The Bible or ancient history does not provide guarantees but simply sufficient facts and historical data which enables the historian and Chronologist to determine and secure 537 BCE as the date for the Return.

3. Celebrated WT scholars along with my good self declare 539 CE as a Pivotal Date for dating the OT and is universally supported by scholarship as the correct date for the Fall of Babylon.

I agree with Thiele that the Bible does not present dates in a BCE format.

If the Jews had followed Jeremiah's warning and repented then they would not have lost their Temple, City and Land for their judgement was provisional but as we know the rest is history.

The two months after the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE in the fifth month indeed provide adequate time for the Jews to flee and leave the Land totally desolate by the beginning of the seventh month, 607 BCE. With Jehovah nothing is impossible for he is the Great Timekeeper.

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

Doug Mason

Hi Doug

Edwin Thiele in his MNHK, 1983, p.67 states "In the Old Testament no absolute dates are given and it becomes our task to establish. if we can, some absolute date in the history of Israel that can be used as a starting point to establish other dates in the desired chronological scheme". WT scholars have selected the Fall of Babylon universally accepted in the year of 539 BCE. Such date in current WT literature is classed as a pivotal date rather than considered to be an Absolute Date but tatter term is my preferent.

Scholars seem to prefer 537BCE for the Return rather than 538 or 535 BCE and WT publications have carefully constructed the facts underlying the determination of 537 BCE.

2 Chronicles 36 in connection with the 70 years omits any reference to Babylon's Fall but only the ist year of Cyrus which is the Return of the Exiles. This means that the 70 years could not have ended in 539 but in 537 BCE. Judah alone was to serve Babylon for 70 years marked by their deportation and the desolation of the land. Other nations also were brought into servitude to Babylon

That is simply your interpretation that the 70 years has symbolic meaning but other authorities who wrote after the event stated that these years were literal a definite historical period.

The 70 years began in the same year as the Fall namely 607 BCE beginning in the seventh month of that year.

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

BORG OFF

Scholar is not a troll for you only have to ask Doug Mason!!!!!

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

Lobsto

In your letter to the Society, you that regarding the beginning of the Monarchy with the reign of David that the starting date is different from any other scholarly source and that our dates for the Kings of Israel and Judah are off by several decades from what is academically accepted. In this, you are quite mistaken for there is simply no scholarly consensus for the reigns of the Divided Monarchy and for the date of David's reign.

For example, in the Chronological And Background Charts Of The Old Testament, 1994 by John H. Walton, pp.30-31 he presents tabulations by six prominent OT historians: Hayes & Hooker, Thiele, Bright and Tadman & Cogan who list heir own dates for each of the reigns and for each king the dates vary considerably. The total reigns for Judah are tabulated as follows:

Hayes&Hooker 340 years, Thiele- 345, Bright- 335, Cogan & Tadmor- 342

In contrast, WT scholars have given 390 years for the total reign for Judah and this is in accord with Jewish tradition and the prophecy of Ezekiel. One critic of WT chronology made a similar determination even though he does not accept 607 BCE. What this means that WT scholars have demonstrated over many decades competence in matters of Chronology and therefore in the matter of 607 BCE one can be very confident in the Methodology chosen by WT scholars over many decades.

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

.Doug Mason

How are you, my dear friend?

You are correct in that 539 BCE for the Fall of Babylon is a calculated date calculated from secular tablets hence properly considered by Chronologists as a Pivotal or Absolute Date and is accepted by the 'celebrated WT scholars'. COJ considers 568 BCE as an Absolute Date but this has been seriously challenged by Rolf Furuli and is not listed by the world's most prominent Chronologist, Edwin Thiele thus scholars have not accorded the same status as an Absolute Date to 568 BCE as they have accorded to 539 BCE.

Regarding your previous comments on 537 BCE for the Return of the Jewish Exiles it must be stated that what event marked the beginning of the 70 years was not the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE. the fifth month but the evacuation from Judah in the seventh month, 607 BCE, both events occurred in the same calender year of 607 BCE

Scholarship has no problem with 537 BCE for the Return of the Jews because it well accords with both the textual and historical data and is the suggested date in much of the literature. COJ had no problems with 537 BCE as he dealt with the matter by means of a footnote reference.

Blessings

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

Lobsto

Other posters have encouraged you to read Carl O. Jonsson's book refuting WT Chronology, Gentile Times Reconsidered in order to assist your understanding of the subject. However, you should be aware of the following problems with Jonsson's thesis which include the following:

1. When did the seventy years begin? COJ discusses both dates 605 and 609 BCE for the beginning but there are inherent problems with either date.

2. What was the actual length of the period? COJ is uncertain on this point either it was literally 70 years, a round number or 66 years.

3. When did the 70 years end? COJ states that the period ended with the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCEbut again there are problems with this interpretation as it clashes with the direct testimony of the prophets who lived at that time

4. Why is it that despite the so-called accuracy of Neo-Babylonian Chronology there is no agreement within current scholarship about the precise calender year for the Fall of Jerusalem namely 586 0r 587 BCE. COJ favours 587 BCE but most leading scholars prefer 586 BCE.

Enjoy!!!

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

Lobsto

The Society's reply to your query is accurate and excellent as it provides a well-constructed overview of our wondrous Bible Chronology. The simple fact is that the key to arriving at a precise date for the Fall of Jerusalem is based on a correct interpretation of Jeremiah's 'seventy years' and this was a period of Exile to, for, at Babylon-Desolation of Judah and Servitude to Babylon. Simply put the Exile ended in 537 BCE and counting backwards 70 years fixes 607 BCE as the destruction of Jerusalem and the beginning of the seventy years. Granted there are other methodologies that present a different date either 586 or 587 BCE which lacks the precision of 607 BCE which is the only date that is in harmony with all of the biblical and secular data.

scholar