Posts by scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

johnamos

You have misread me. Jer. 27 addresses five nations excluding Judah whereas Jer.25 lists many more of the surrounding nations. I did not mean to say that there are only five surrounding nations in total. try to improve your comprehension skills which are lacking as shown also by your poor understanding of the Society's reply.

What you fail to realize that Jer. 25.11 is exegetically difficult and is challenging to translate into English for this is shown by comparing different Bible translations. This verse requires interpretation aided by comparing it with Daniel 9:2 and 2 Chron. 36:20-23.

The NWT with Ref. 1984 has the 'seventy years ' without a prefix, standing alone and could either be applied to 'this land' or 'these nations' or in combination of both terms. For example, note how it is rendered in The New English Bible,1970:"For seventy years this whole country shall be a scandal and a horror; these nations shall be in subjection to the king of Babylon".

The Bible in Living English by Steven Byington: "and all the country shall become a desolation, and they shall be in slavery among the nations seventy years".

A New Translation Of The Bible by James Moffat: "The whole of this country shall be a waste and a horror and for seventy years the people shall be subject to the king of Babylon". BIG problem here!!!!!! Do you get the point?

I have repeatedly told you that the 70 years does indeed represent a period of Babylonian domination in combination with an Exile to Babylon and the Desolation of the land from the Fall in 607 BCE until the Return in 537 BCE. Further, all of those surrounding nations came under Babylonian domination right up to the time of the end of the Babylonian monarchy which came to its end in 539 BCE.

The date 609 BCE is a fuzzy date in terms as to whether it properly constitutes the end of the Assyrian Empire and has nothing to do with Jeremiah's seventy years prophecy.

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

LeeT

Thank you for the catalog list of Babylonian texts. I notice that all of the regnal years for Nebuchadnezzar are now listed so with all of this information for both the reign of Nebuchadnezzar and his successors, Do any of these texts shed any light on the 70 years especially since WT critics claim the 70 years are only for Babylon and not for Judah? Further, in connection with the listings of the 43 regnal years for Nebuchadrezzar, Is there any mention of the 7 years of vacancy when neb lost the kingship according to Daniel ch.4?

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

LeeT

I wish to inform you and all other posters that scholar has done this course a couple of years ago when it was first introduced on this forum. I recommend that all critics do that course and purchase the main textbook, The Fall and Rise of Jerusalem by Obed Lipschits, 2005, Eisenbrauns.

I found the course most interesting especially the many visuals as these gave a good overview of the geopolitical reality especially during the time when Babylon came to power. What struck me was the simple fact that the seventy years could not have begun in either 606 or 609 BCE. The text book gives 586 BCE for the Fall and makes very little mention of the seventy years almost complete silence

In order to obtain a Certificate, one has to complete online quizzes and assessment, in my short essays I argued for our understanding of the 70 years and the fact that the Judah was totally desolate.

I strongly recommend that all critics of WT Chronology do this course and should a requisite for anyone who wants to say something about the Chronology of the that Period-the last days of Judah. Doug are you paying attention to this?

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

Finkelstein

The historical, biblical and archaeological proves that Judah was depopulated and desolated for 70 years as foretold by Jeremiah, witnessed by Daniel and confirmed by Ezra and the later historian Josephus.

Current archaeology accepts 586 BCE rather than 587 BCE and does not accept 607 BCE at this stage.

The Bible does not support Mythology and neither does the celebrated WT scholars and the said scholar.

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

johnamos

Agreed. Jeremiah's prophecy herein is addressed to five surrounding nations of Judah and including the nation of Judah that they could escape Jehovah's judgement by submitting in servitude to the then reigning king, Nebuchadnezzer. In this chapter, there is no connection of the 'seventy years as such as in the case of the preceding chapter 25 which was also addressed to the nations including Judah which altogether had to serve Babylon 70 years. When one considers the duration of the Babylonian monarchy from Nebuchadnezzer to Belshazzar you get an overall period of 66 years which could be rounded up to 70 years representing the Babylonian Dynasty. This scenario would easily account for the 70 years ascribed to Tyre's servitude as a round number.

However, Jeremiah's texts of the seventy years are applicable to Judah alone giving precise details as to its chronology and its nature that of not only being one of servitude but of exile and desolation with a precise beginning and end. These factors are not present with those oracles given to the Nations roundabout.

There is simply no basis, in fact, to claim that the 70 years for Judah ended in 539 BCE or began in the fuzzy date of 609 BCE. How you apply to the other nations the servitude to Babylon for 70 years is a matter of speculation for the Bible provides no details on that subject.

Current scholarship of late 2018 dismisses the 539 BCE interpretation of Babylonian domination solely applicable to the seventy years of Jeremiah arguing rather that this period refers to the Exile ending ith the Return under Cyrus in 537 BCE

Again I repeat in the light of the 70 years' textual corpus, the theory that the 70 years ended in 539 BCE is impossible and is simply bunkum!!!!

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

johnamos

Your last post refers back to Jeremiah 27:6-14 so What is your point?

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

Finkelstein

It is correct to say that Judah came under Babylonian domination for a period of 70 years as foretold by Jeremiah, confirmed by Ezra and witnessed firsthand by Daniel. All of the historical, archaeological and biblical evidence validates 607 BCE as the only possible date for the Fall of Jerusalem. The date 586 or 587 BCE cannot account for the full period of 70 years so it is falsified on the basis of evidence because it comes up short this you have a BIG poblem(misspelling intentional).

To argue that the period of desolation was 49 years is utter nonsense because the Bible states emphatically that this was to be a full period of 70 years and to say anything else simply amounts to revisionism and is dishonest.

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

johnamos

Indeed Jer.25:11 states that 'all these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years' which included Judah whereupon we have definite historical and biblical facts to show how that proved true chronologically. The Bible simply does not provide the historical details for those other nations even as in the case of Tyre as foretold earlier by Isaiah. In the case of Judah as outlined in the previous pericope as proved by 'this land and its inhabitants',;vs.11'And all this land' there are definitive historical markers which define the 70 period of Babylonish domination from the Fall in 607 until the Return in 537 BCE. In short, these nations all would fall under the 'umbrella 'of Babylonian domination of 70 years.

It is impossible for the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE to be the event that ended the 70 years because both Daniel and Ezra stated that it was not until the reign of Cyrus had begun and that it was only in the 1st year of Darius that the 70 year period had not then been completed.

Further, the choice of 609BCE for the Fall of Assyria to begin the seventy years fails also because the principal features of Jeremiah's seventy years are not applicable. Such features as described by Jeremiah are 1. The land would become desolate 2. The Jewish people would be exiled to Babylon and 3. That Judah would have to serve Babylon. The date 609 BCE's only claim to fame is the arithmetic in that if you subtract 7o years you arrive at 539 BCE which is meaningless. Nothing of historical significance occurred in 609 BCE and that is why COJ considered 605 BCE as a more meaningful candidate for the beginning of the 70 years.

I recognize the fact that most Bible translations render 'for' rather than at' in Jer. 29:10 but it really makes no difference to the history, chronology or theology of the Period under discussion.

Yes, Tyre was one of the nations listed by Jeremiah that would come under judgement but its specifics are unknown as with all other nations listed with the exception of Judah singled out for special attention by Jehovah God.

We cannot say with certainty how Jeremiah's oracles against the other nations applied historically and chronologically except in the case of Judah. However, all of the nations thus specified by Jeremiah fell within the 70 year period of Babylonian domination. In the case of Judah it was foretold and confirmed that a period of 70 years from the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE until the Return in 537 BCE was a period of Servitude to/for Babylon, and Exile in Babylon leaving a totally Desolated Land of Judah'

QED

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

Finkelstein

The celebrated WT scholars are not happy with your comments and neither is the said scholar!!!!!

scholar

154

Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto in

a month ago i sent a letter to the us branch about 607. my purpose for sending it was because i wanted to show to my parents through the letters the truth behind the date system.

two days ago, i received a response from them.

i think this is gonna be the first of many.

scholar

johnamos

Regarding Jer. 29:10 there are other translations that agree with the NWT's rendering of this passage such as the King James Version , Latin Vulgate and the Greek Septuagint LXX. In the reply to Lonsto from the Society it stated that "However, use of the word 'at' or 'in' does not change the number of years given, nor the fact that Babylon took Israelites captive" Further, all that is meant by the use of the preposition 'for' is that the Jewish Exiles were under Babylon's domination or in servitude to Babylon which is what I stated in my initial post.

Yes, WTS and scholar agree that the 70 years are for Babylon namely in SERVITUDE to Babylon in addition also to being a period of EXILE in Babylon whilst the Land of Judah was DESOLATE in combination for 70 years.

The 70 years for Tyre only represent a period of Babylon's domination also we do not know the chronology for the domination of Tyre domination and is not identical with the 70 years of Jeremiah.

Q: When did Jehovah say he would call Babylon to account?

Jer. 25:12 which you only quoted in part states that it was only after the 70 years have been fulfilled. Thus it could not have been in 539 BCE with the Fall of Babylon because Daniel the Prophet who was in Babylon at that time wrote in the 1st year of Darius the Mede who took the kingship of Babylon after its Fall in 539BCE that he then discerned the continuation of the 70 years This fact alone proves that at the time of Babylon's Fall in 539 BCE that the 70 years had not then expired.

Q: What year did Jehovah call Babylon to account? The Bible does not say because nowhere does it state any specific year so that rules out 539 BCE but rather Jer.25:12 describes it rather as a period of judgement over time such as the punishment would be for the king, the nation and the land of the Chaldeans. All of these things occurred after 539 BCE further Jeremiah in the nest verse shows that the land would become desolate and that did not happen in 539 BCE.

The evidence indicates that the 70 years was a period of time of Babylon's domination over Judah with the Jews being deported to Babylon as Exiles leaving the land of Judah totally desolate from 607 BCE with the Fall of Jerusalem until the Return of the Exiles in 537 BCE.

scholar