Posts by scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

johnamos

n that 81 WT they did not cite 25:12 but in the following they do by citing 25:8-17, which obviously includes verse 12. They also agree with historians/secular chronology as to what and when the 70 years are.

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That WT article cited by you does not make any mention of Jer.25;8-17 and the paragraph that you quote simply describes the fact that Babylon was to punished by God and this occurred in 539 BCE but this event was not what was foretold in Jer. 25:12. Further your last statement is not correct because most our view of the ending of the 70 years differs from most historians.

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[Isaiah’s Prophecy 1 p. 253-254 par. 21 – He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.]

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We agree that the 70 years also represents a period of Babylonia's greatest domination in relation to Judah as Judah was for that period in SERVITUDE and in EXILE in Babylon which ran from the Fall of Jerusalem until the return under Cyrus. Thus Jer. 25:12 is not addressed to Judah but to Babylon and describes how as the same of Judah who became desolated, Babylon would be punished or called to account similarly after the 70 years had ended which was at the return in 537 BCE.

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[10-1-11 WT - Instead of saying 70 years “at Babylon,” many translations read “for Babylon.” (NIV) Some historians therefore claim that this 70-year period applies to the Babylonian Empire. According to secular chronology, the Babylonians dominated the land of ancient Judah and Jerusalem for some 70 years, from about 609 B.C.E. until 539 B.C.E. when the capital city of Babylon was captured.]

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The rendering 'at' or 'for' Babylon does nor alter the fact that the Jews were in Babylon in Exile for 70 years and in servitude to Babylon for that same period of time. The 70 years is only applicable to Babylon in its relation to the captive nation of Judah as foretold by Jeremiah the prophet. It is impossible to begin the 70 years from 609 BCE as a historical beginning because nothing of any historical or biblical significance occurred in that year. That is why Jonsson canvassed the idea that 605 rather than 609 as a possible candidate.

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

Sanchy

Wrong again.

A) The "seven times" can in fact refer to years, or are you in disagreement with the "faithful slave"?

B) Regardless of how long each "time" is, it would be extra biblical to claim that it applies to something or someone other than King Neb, as you have done

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Wrong again for the seven times cannot refer to seven times explicitly speaking and only by inference, tradition or interpretation.

An extra biblical claim as you suggest is unnecessary as the text states 'times' and not 'years'.

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Wrong again.

A) The "seven times" can in fact refer to years, or are you in disagreement with the "faithful slave"?

B) Regardless of how long each "time" is, it would be extra biblical to claim that it applies to something or someone other than King Neb, as you have done

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You keep saying this but it simply not the case. As noted above, the word times applies to King Neb, and God's Rulership is eternal, referring to his sovereignty. None of this, not in the least bit, proves that the dream has two fulfillments.

If the dream had two meanings, God could have easily inspired Daniel to point that fact out. Especially so for such an important prophecy as you claim this to be. The fact that there is absolutely no direct suggestion of a second meaning is clear enough proof that there is none; otherwise, your God would evidently not be very good at dictating his will.

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The word 'times' must necessarily take the reader or exegete beyond Neb's experience for otherwise the Hebrew word for 'years' would have been used in the four occurrences in Daniel 4. God did in fact point out the fact that the dream would serve two fulfilments by the constant reference to His Kingdom or rulership which transcends all other past, present and future Kingdoms.

Further, the use of the word 'times' and frequent references to God's Kingdom proves beyond any reasonable doubt that the tree dream has dual fulfilments.

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indeed. It's all eisegetical. Again, this Biblical God with his ambiguity would need to apply some lessons from the Theocratic Ministry school, starting by clarity of ideas.

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Scholar has no need of eisegesis leaving that to amateurs such as yourself but scholar deals with exegesis.

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

johnamos

[Jeremiah 25:’12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah,

Indeed and that calling into account would only occur after the 70 years had expired which was not in 539 BCE when Babylon the city fell but after 537 BCE when in the straits of time the city, its kingship and land became desolated which is what Jeremiah exactly foretold.

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8-1-81 WT p. 27-28 - “The idol-worshiping Babylonians now were in line for God’s judgment to be executed upon them. That happened in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.”]

-You will notice that the WT did not cite Jer. 25:12 in connection with this statement.

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

Mean Mr Mustard

I disagree. Both you and Furuli take small exceptions and elevate them to the rule. You’ve got all sorts of Bible translations rendering 25:11 as a clear separation of thoughts, and you quote the NEB, a translation known for English fluency over accuracy, and treat is as the baseline. Furuli, in a vain attempt to extend the kings lists by 20 years, finds “anomalous” business document tablets that seem to be dated outside of various kings regnal years here and there. A month here, month there. Most turned out to be collation errors. But instead of considering these anomalies as possible scribal mistakes or collation errors, these tablets were taken as truth and used to argue against the other thousands of documents

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Scholar is well pleased that you recognize the fluidity in the translation of so this gives one reason to think about the meaning of that verse. Furuli is helpful here because unlike COJ, he is an expert in those ancient languages so his research must be taken seriously.

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This is literally ludicrous, scholar. Verse 9 specifically says Babylon will come against Judah and “all these nations round about”. That’s two verses before “these nations” in v11. Its servitude for “these nations”, as recent scholarship on this subject show

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Verse 9 provides the context for what follows in that Judah was to be made desolate and along with other nations would be in servitude to Babylon. for 70 years.

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This is literally ludicrous, scholar. Verse 9 specifically says Babylon will come against Judah and “all these nations round about”. That’s two verses before “these nations” in v11. Its servitude for “these nations”, as recent scholarship on this subject show

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Non sequitur. That is pure logical BS.

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You fail to understand the meaning of what I have said so please expalin for in the case of each separate nation when each period of servitude applied?

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Yes it does matter. Seventy years of servitude for Babylon of “these nations”. What nations? 25:9 - Judah and all the nations round about. It’s seventy years for Babylon - 29:10. It’s plainly stated

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Indeed it is plainly stated that Judah would be desolate for 70 years, that Judah would serve Babylon for 70 years and that the other nations would also serve Babylon for 70 years.

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How can Babylon be called to account after it’s been overthrown? There is no Babylon, as a ruling entity, after 539. There is no meaningful way anyone can serve the king of Babylon after the empire is gone, as recent scholarship has pointed out
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Simple. Babylon remained as a political entity under a new King of Babylon under Persia and after 539 which was only its Fall it would experience a final judgement of being destroyed over time along with its kingship and land.

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

Sanchy

The tree dream has two applications as shown by the use of the word' times' rather than' years' and the many references in Ch.4 to God's Kingdom;

Seven times does not mean seven years for the word time means an appointed or definite time or period. If literal years are meant then the appropriate word would have been used to say just that meaning. The periods have afar greater application because of the reference to God's kingdom or rulership in connection with the humiliation of Neb.

The dream's application to Neb's humiliation proved God's sovereignty and that all rulers are subject to a rulership greater than theirs thus in context with the book of Daniel showed that God's kingdom would be an indefinite one. We can all appeal to authority and that is what one does when one uses exegesis because must research widely and consider the opinions of others.

In the case of the interpretation of the tree dream, there are a wide range of opinions but I embrace that as such various views allow one to reflect on these views and then form one's own view of matters. In short, one does his or her own exegesis or accept an eisegesis from others if that is the preference.

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

MeanMrMustard

I am glad that you have read both Jonsson and Furuli. Your claim of the commitment of logical fallacies by Furuli and my good self is simply 'hot air' on your part.

Verses 1-9 provide the context for this chapter and it is the context that proves that the 70 years specifically applies to Judah as recent scholarship on the subject shows.

The Bible provides a detailed history of what befell Judah thus a Chronology can then be made but this is not the case with the other nations for which no details are given as to their particulars periods of servitude apply.

No it does matter that the seventy years was a period of servitude, exile and desolation running from the fall to the Return.

The verse 18 follows on from what is stated in vs. 12 which deals with the nations, first Babylon beginning after the 70 years had elapsed in 537 BCE

Nope the calling into account for Babylon only commenced after the 70 years had finished in 537 and not 539 BCE as shown by recent scholarship.

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

Diogeneister

You and I appreciate that fact but most readers on this forum may not be aware of this so that is the reason for my comment which is addressed to such readers.

Scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

Sanchy

Exegetically it has two meanings or applications as shown by the WBE referenced for your information.

Your exegesis by means solely of a literal reading of Dan 4 is flawed eg. where the word 'times' occurs it does not a 'year'' but 'years' therefor the expression 'seven times' cannot mean seven years literally but seven periods of time. This chapter further takes the reader beyond the humiliation of Nebuchadnezzar by means of God's rulership or Kingdom which is always given a futuristic aspect.

Many other scholars agree with scholar and Bobcat as shown by examining many Bible commentaries on Daniel.for such a major fulfilment is based not on any eisegesis but solid exegesis.

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

Sanchy

Whether you call it two fulfillments or two applications, matters not for it is obvious that the tree dream has a dula purpose of function.

It is not eisegesis that is your problem but it is the simple fact that you refuse to commit to exegesis as I have asked you repeatedly to do so get cracking!!!

Methinks you are wrong because you refuse to read and study the text of Dan 4 for at least Bobcat and I have read the text line by line , word by word, paragraph by paragraph.

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

Sanchy

No need to make a pathetic claim just to honestly recognize the terms and words used in the narrative of Dan 4. If you had done exegesis instead of eisegesis you would have come to see that the tree dream has two fulfillments as the WBC on Daniel, p.87 explains "Chap.4 is centrally concerned with the kingship of Nebuchadnezzer and the kingship or rule of the Most High God or of the King, Lord of Heaven".

Also you look to a good theological dictionary of the NT on the use and meaning of times in the NT which is part of doing exegesis and not eisegesis. So get cracking!!!!

scholar