Posts by scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

Sanchy

I don't need to prove a negative. It is up to you to prove that there is a second meaning to the dream of Dan 4, but you can't show me any verse that directly says the dream has more than one meaning, because there isn't any, so you must instead turn to your biased, eisegetical perspective

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I have proved that a secondary meaning is located in the narrative of the tree dream by means of its language, terms used such repeated references to God's Kingdom/rulership, thematic content and the linguistics associated with the word for 'times' used 4 times in the ch.4. It is not the case to simply say that you do not need to prove a negative for this rather cowardly and shows that you have a hidden agenda. The fact is that if the matter is of concern to you then you must do the exegesis of the chapter for all that you are doing is simply eisegesis- imposing your own literal interpretation onto the text.

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Maybe you need a refresher course since you keep struggling with the terms

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At least I am doing something right as I have your constant attention.

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indeed, as I've mentioned previously you are seeking hidden meanings and connecting unconnected dots to arrive at your conclusion. Your God should really be called "The Riddler".

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There are longer hidden meanings because as Dan.2 refers 4 times that God is the Revealer of secrets.

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t matters not if you "have issues" with Bobcat's interpretation or not. The point is that Bobcat's interpretation is just as likely of being wrong as yours, for it is all based on assumptions and hypothesis.

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Dan 4 has right from its times been subject to interpretation of which there are many so nothing new here so the challenge is for you and for any reader to find the the correct interpretation that is in harmony with the context of the chapter, book of Daniel, and entire Bible.

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There is no direct suggestion within Daniel 4 that the dream means anything other than what Daniel himself describes in verses 19-27, and nowhere in there will you find anything about the "gentile times" nor anything about Jeremiah's 70 years nor anything regarding 2,250 years that lead to 1914. You've forced all those elements into the dream.

-- You are simply repeating nonsense without any basis in exegesis. The expression 'Gentile Times although not found in Daniel but in Luke which as the 'times'- being appointed or definite would be an exegetical link for both Luke 21:24 and Dan 4 in harmony of the eschatology of both books. Dan 4 has an exegetical link to jeremiah's 'seventy years' by means of its referene in the OG of Dan 4.

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

RubaDub

Methinks you are dabbling in numerology.

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

johnamos

You have no idea what you are talking about. The link that I put to the BM has the chronicle that shows the fall of Nineveh as 612 and then 609 was the fall of Haran that did away with the Assyrian empire.

That aside, I showed that the WTS says the fall of Haran was in 629 because they add 20 years to 587 to come to 607 so they have to keep adding the 20 years to everything so the 609 becomes 629.

So with that noted that means that if Babylon defeated Assyrian with that last battle in Haran in 629 then that means Babylon was the 3rd world power for 90 years. (629-539

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All that you are presenting is a number of key historical events relating to the last days of the Assyrian Empire and the early phase of the Neo-Babylonian Empire based on Neo-Babylonian Chronology which is falsified by Jeremiah's 'seventy years' which requires the adjustment of some twenty years to that traditional chronology. WT publications have made that adjustment of twenty years in our publications which no doubt you will find that these now corrected dates are most helpful.

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WHAT do you say about the FACT that verse 11 says that NATIONS WOULD ONLY HAVE TO SERVE BABYLON FOR 70 YEARS?

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Not much really for this is simply your interpretation of which can be interpreted quite differently indicating that the Judah alone was desolate for 70 years and Judah along with other surrounding nations served Babylon for 70 years which ran from the Fall in 607 to the Return in 537 BCE.

If you truly believe that the nations served Babylon for 70 years then with the exception of Tyre can you document how that period of servitude applied to all the other nations listed amounting to at least 18 in number in Jer. 25:17-26.

Enjoy!!!!

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

johnyamos

WT scholars do not deny that the seventy years has no implications for the surrounding nation because for that period of seventy years from the Fall to the Return wherein Judah was desolate and in servitude to Babylon meant that Babylon had complete dominion over all of the surrounding nations and territories just as Jeremiah foretold in ch 25 and again by Isaiah in reference to Tre which also came under Babylon's domination. But the important fact is that Jeremiah's seventy years were specifically addressed to Judah and Judah alone accompanied by its widespread effects or impact on the other nations which also would like Babylon experience judgement.

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YES something historical did happen in 609. That is when Babylon defeated Assyria making Babylon the 3rd world power, until is came to its end in 539. (70 years)

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This is simply opinion not historical fact because such cannot be determined definitively so we have some event which is simply too fuzzy so unsuitable to serve as a time marker and that is why Jonsson toyed with 605 rather than 609 BCE.

For this reason, it has been shown that the beginning of the seventy years with the Fall of Jerusalem which is a marked event in biblical history and signified chronologically is the only possible candidate for the beginning of the seventy years in 607 BCE and ending in 537BCE.

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

Sanchy

Even so, regardless of whether it were years, months or any other amount of time, the seven times had one application and that is to King Neb, as per Daniel himself. No mention of a second "greater" meaning is given, as your bosses at Watchtower claim.

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This is simply your opinion and you cannot prove that only one application of the tree dream is applicable but WT scholars have provided proof as I have outlined that there are two application of the dream.

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You really struggle with the definition of "exegesis" and "eisegesis". Please, check the wikipedia article on the subject, it's actually surprisingly thorough, and it will prevent you from further embarrassment

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No need to struggle because I studied Hermeneutics at the university and I am familiar with the steps of Exegesis so would like me to outline those steps? Then you can do your own exegesis of ch. 4 as I have done.

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I'd add that the only thing "readily apparent" to the reader of Dan 4 would be the interpretation Daniel gave to the dream himself, for this is the only interpretation given within that chapter. Your injected secondary meaning (overlapping fulfillment lol) where you claim that the Tree from the dream actually means God's Rulership (a side note: it is absurd to have God share the same symbol as a Pagan King) and that the "seven times" actually means 2,250 years and that you then magically end up at 1914, is NOT "readily apparent" to any reader, except those that bring the bias with them (eisegesis)

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It is about time that you added something to this discussion for all that we have had from you is a lot of whining and posturing Daniel interpreted the dream and applied this to Neb but the language, symbolism and other thematic references such as God;s Kingdom confirms that the dream applied to something beyond Neb's experience and that is the reality and supremacy of God's sovereignty For this is overarching feature not only of this dream vision but the entire book of Daniel.. I have no issues with Bobcat's interpretation for it is up to the reader himself to discern its true meaning.

scholar

49

A deeper examination of The New World Translation

by Terry in

shorturl.at/ouakr.

scholar

fulltimestudent

Thank you for that information about Farleigh James for I remembered meeting him at the Rooming Desk at a Sydney conversation and sought from him clarification of John 1:1 but did not find him helpful so that impelled me to attend classes in koine Greek at Sydney uni.

I am glad to hear that I was not alone in attending courses at Macquarrie for I am a great advocate for University learning as I have completed two degrees majoring in Religious Studies and half of an Honours degree in Philosophy.

Hellenism was a major cultural influence on Jewish Society at the time of Jesus but it is somewhat of a stretch to classify Jesus as 'Hellenized Jew' for there is simply no evidence for such a label.

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

Sanchy

If what you are saying is that the "seven times" cannot refer to seven literal years, then welcome aboard fellow apostate, since Watchtower teaches the opposite

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Nope for scholar accepts the WT's interpretation that the 'seven times' also applies to a literal seven years of Neb's humiliation a shown by the OG, Josephus and early Jewish commentators.

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As shown here, you apologists love connecting unconnected dots and finding hidden meanings in order to support your concocted narratives. None of this actually proves a second meaning to the dream, but in your mind.

But hey, if you are intellectually bankrup enough to excuse the Overlapping Generation teaching, then i understand how you can also be deluded enough to claim that the dream's elements have multiple meanings. Maybe instead of "secondary meaning" I'll call it the "overlapping fulfillme

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The meaning behind the tree dream is readily apparent to the reader because of the use of 'times' and the frequent use of the terms for kingdom and rulership located throughout the narrative and confirmed by exegesis. No need to look under the bed for something hidden so just read the text in its entirety.

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

MeanMrMustard

All of my posts have been recognizing the exact opposite. You have a 16/17 year history on this site arguing in favor of the WT’s chronology. You aren’t a troll, unless you are playing at God-level. But heck, I can see why people think you are just trolling. For now, I’ll assume you have a heavy cult bias against “the devil’s dates”. I don’t know how else to explain this... and I definitely don’t know why you keep referring to yourself in the third person

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Indeed scholar has a long history on this site arguing in support of WT Chronology so he has experience in debating this subject especially 607 BCE thus as you have observed, scholar is no troll.

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You missed the point completely. Set COJ to the side for a moment. Go to biblegateway.com, type in Jeremiah 25:11 and ask the site to display ALL of their translations for comparison. Or click here: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Jeremiah%2025:11

Every one of them divide the verse into two separate thoughts, with the “for seventy years” modifier attaching to Babylonian servitude of “these nations”, nothing else. Some go all the way and just make two sentences from the verse. It is not COJ we are talking about. It’s entire rooms full of Hebrew translators, all agreeing. Even the NWT committee renders this verse as two separate thoughts. You can’t attach “for seventy years” to the first part of the sentence. If you do it is grammatically incorrect. But Furuli, who isn’t biased at all, it’s that authority we should trust. Because maybe, since Furuli says so, we should conclude that pretty much every other translation committee/team doesn’t understand English. They all know the 70 years applies to Judah, but forked it up, each and every one of them, when composing their English version. But hey, a JW scholar with every reason to mislead, says that maybe, if you squint hard, hop up and down while drunk, on Thursdays, well you can kinda translate it the way we want - and look and the NEB!

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The simple fact is that is open to differing translations Jer.25:11 as shown by comparing how the verse appears in different Bibles but the key elements remain namely that Judah was to become desolate for seventy years and would serve Babylon for that same period as would all the other nations thus this text defines the seventy years as a period of desolation of Judah and a period of servitude along with the nations to serving Babylon.

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Verse 9 explicitly expands it to other nations roundabout. So does verse 11. So does chapter 27, 28, and 29. Good forking lord.

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Verse 9 describes Judah along with the other nations becoming desolate by means of Neb but the entire context beginning from vs. 1 applies specifically to Judah and then from vs 12 attention is focussed on Babylon followed in turn the rest of the now identified surrounding nations.

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I’m assuming this didn’t come out right - another sheriff or rottingham incident? Do you want me to list the “nations round about” and specify the start and end dates for their participation in the 70 years? And if so, what good would that do?

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Yes, indeed for if you are going to construct a valid argument then you should list those nations with their respective histories in terms of a Chronology just as one can do with Judah.

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Ok. Ok.. I see what you are trying to do now. You are trying to move that modifier to the first part of the verse. It doesn’t work. You can’t do that unless you ignore grammar, or fall back on your logical fallacy

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Opinions differ as to the location of the modifier but for scholar it does not matter because the facts of the matter come out the same or with the same result. tossing up the ingredients in the salad does not change the salad to use a simple analogy.

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Pfft. Lol. It can’t remain a political entity. The physical city was still there, and people too. But nobody could serve Babylon anymore. Nations could serve Persia

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Babylon remained a political entity even after its Fall in 539 BCE which was not its destruction or desolation as foretold by Jeremiah in 25:12. The city continued as usual but under a new Kingship, the Medo-Persian World power now in its ascendancy. The servitude to Babylon until she released her captives in 537 BCE thus ending the Exile and servitude to Babylon.

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

johnamos

n that 81 WT they did not cite 25:12 but in the following they do by citing 25:8-17, which obviously includes verse 12. They also agree with historians/secular chronology as to what and when the 70 years are.

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That WT article cited by you does not make any mention of Jer.25;8-17 and the paragraph that you quote simply describes the fact that Babylon was to punished by God and this occurred in 539 BCE but this event was not what was foretold in Jer. 25:12. Further your last statement is not correct because most our view of the ending of the 70 years differs from most historians.

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[Isaiah’s Prophecy 1 p. 253-254 par. 21 – He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.]

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We agree that the 70 years also represents a period of Babylonia's greatest domination in relation to Judah as Judah was for that period in SERVITUDE and in EXILE in Babylon which ran from the Fall of Jerusalem until the return under Cyrus. Thus Jer. 25:12 is not addressed to Judah but to Babylon and describes how as the same of Judah who became desolated, Babylon would be punished or called to account similarly after the 70 years had ended which was at the return in 537 BCE.

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[10-1-11 WT - Instead of saying 70 years “at Babylon,” many translations read “for Babylon.” (NIV) Some historians therefore claim that this 70-year period applies to the Babylonian Empire. According to secular chronology, the Babylonians dominated the land of ancient Judah and Jerusalem for some 70 years, from about 609 B.C.E. until 539 B.C.E. when the capital city of Babylon was captured.]

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The rendering 'at' or 'for' Babylon does nor alter the fact that the Jews were in Babylon in Exile for 70 years and in servitude to Babylon for that same period of time. The 70 years is only applicable to Babylon in its relation to the captive nation of Judah as foretold by Jeremiah the prophet. It is impossible to begin the 70 years from 609 BCE as a historical beginning because nothing of any historical or biblical significance occurred in that year. That is why Jonsson canvassed the idea that 605 rather than 609 as a possible candidate.

scholar

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

scholar

Sanchy

Wrong again.

A) The "seven times" can in fact refer to years, or are you in disagreement with the "faithful slave"?

B) Regardless of how long each "time" is, it would be extra biblical to claim that it applies to something or someone other than King Neb, as you have done

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Wrong again for the seven times cannot refer to seven times explicitly speaking and only by inference, tradition or interpretation.

An extra biblical claim as you suggest is unnecessary as the text states 'times' and not 'years'.

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Wrong again.

A) The "seven times" can in fact refer to years, or are you in disagreement with the "faithful slave"?

B) Regardless of how long each "time" is, it would be extra biblical to claim that it applies to something or someone other than King Neb, as you have done

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You keep saying this but it simply not the case. As noted above, the word times applies to King Neb, and God's Rulership is eternal, referring to his sovereignty. None of this, not in the least bit, proves that the dream has two fulfillments.

If the dream had two meanings, God could have easily inspired Daniel to point that fact out. Especially so for such an important prophecy as you claim this to be. The fact that there is absolutely no direct suggestion of a second meaning is clear enough proof that there is none; otherwise, your God would evidently not be very good at dictating his will.

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The word 'times' must necessarily take the reader or exegete beyond Neb's experience for otherwise the Hebrew word for 'years' would have been used in the four occurrences in Daniel 4. God did in fact point out the fact that the dream would serve two fulfilments by the constant reference to His Kingdom or rulership which transcends all other past, present and future Kingdoms.

Further, the use of the word 'times' and frequent references to God's Kingdom proves beyond any reasonable doubt that the tree dream has dual fulfilments.

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indeed. It's all eisegetical. Again, this Biblical God with his ambiguity would need to apply some lessons from the Theocratic Ministry school, starting by clarity of ideas.

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Scholar has no need of eisegesis leaving that to amateurs such as yourself but scholar deals with exegesis.

scholar