Posts by scholar

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

scholar', you're just going round in circles with the same claims, so no extended response is required. Your claims that actual scholars support the JW view of the exile are entirely dishonest, and your use of the term "exilic scholars" as a qualifier is not particularly helpful. (A Google search for "exilic scholars" and "70 years" together yields only two results; one is a scam and the other is a JW-related forum comment by you. Changing "70 years" to "seventy years" yields 6 results, being either of similar 'quality' or otherwise not supportive of your views.) You know very well that actual scholars view the exile from early 597 BCE and the destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BCE, and secular historians do not conflate Babylon's 70 years with the exile (and nor do Ezekiel or Jeremiah). Jeremiah explicitly states that Babylon's 70 years end and then Babylon is called to account, and Daniel explicitly indicates Babylon being called to account in the agreed year of 539 BCE. Jeremiah further explicitly states that attention is given to the Jews' return from exile after the 70 years had ended. There is simply no getting away from the fact that the 70 years ended in 539 BCE and are therefore not the same as the period of exile.

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You are ignorant of current scholarship especially with regard to the subject of the Exile-Jewish Exile for there are scholars who are properly termed 'Exilic scholars' who specialize in this period of Jewish history such as Rainer Albertz. There is no need for me to 'go round in circles' for I unlike you, know the subject, its implications for theology and history.

Scholars properly date the Exile from the Fall to the Return and not earlier which saw at least one deportation of some Jews prior to the Fall and they do conflate the 70 years of captivity with the Exile of 70 years for there is no other period or different 70 year periods. There is only one period of 70 years and this can only be construed byJerr that period of Exile-Captivity-Servitude.

Jeremiah quite explicitly states that the 70 Years ended not with the Fall of Babylon but after the 70 years was fulfilled, such event occurred only after Babylon's Fall with its own ongoing judgment of desolation.

Daniel describes the continuance of the 70 years as a period up to the Fall of Babylon and beyond with the lamentation of the Exile by means of prayer which would come to end.

Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezra all agree that the 70 years ended not with the Fall of Babylon but only with the Return of the Jews which occurred after 539 BCE. Further, if you count back 70 years from 539 BCE you get to 609 BCE with nothing happened in that year, no significant historical event .

scholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Rocketman123

Scholar why dont you just be intellectually honest and just say the ancient Hebrews did not suffer 70 years of desolation but came close to being captive by the Babylonians for almost 70 years,

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Intellectual honesty compels one to affirm the biblical and historical fact that the Jews experienced an Exile in Babylon for 70 years whilst their homeland remained desolate and captive to Babylon for 70 years.

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Ancient Jerusalem did not get invaded and destroyed in 607 BCE but the overwhelming evidence points to 586 BCE.

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Ancient Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE as proved by the overwhelming evidence which disproves 586 or 587 BCE

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All that happened to the inhabitants of Jerusalem including those set about kings are documented into history and supported by archeological findings including the bible.

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Correct so just read the Bible and understand what really happened during that period of history as confirmed by archaeology and secular history.

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Being dishonest is not a virtue to ones character, not least a practicing Christian.

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I will leave the dishonesty to youscholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

Seems to be a verb missing there, but let's ignore that for now... Shame on you trying to confuse Vidqun when you should know very well that Jehoiakim's 'third year' as referenced by Daniel uses Nisan/accession dating and refers to the year that began in Nisan 605 BCE and specifically to events in early 604 BCE, as opposed to Jeremiah's reference to his fourth year using Tishri/non-accession dating.

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True and False. What is only true about your post is that I omitted a verb. What is false about your post is the claim that Daniel in this instance used a different calendrical system. This is simply a claim made by some scholars but fails to account for an accurate history for the reign of Jehoiakim and Nebuchadnezzar. Inaccurate history has no place in Chronology.

scholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

My chart of the flawed JW chronology certainly highlights many of the faults with JW dogma. An updated version will be posted next month (no revelations, just some minor layout changes). It's always best to check the site for the current version as old links won't work.

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What your pretty chart demonstrates the validity of WT Chronology and its scholarship based on biblical evidence.

scholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

Your assessment of the early Neo-Babylonian period is correct, but JWs insert 20 years into the Neo-Babylonian period after Nebuchadnezzar’s reign, pushing back the years assigned to his reign. So it’s not as simple as querying Nebuchadnezzar’s conquest of Jerusalem ‘before’ his victory at Carchemish. What we, and all of scholarship for the period, know was 605 BCE, historical revisionists like ‘scholar’ and other JWs call 625 BCE.

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All that we have done is factored in the definite historic period of the biblical' seventy years' which proves that there is at least a gap in NB Chronology of at least 20 years and according to Furuli's research may be a longer gap.

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The Watch Tower Society vacillates between ignoring the problem - not attempting to defend 607 for decades - and occasional dishonest attempts to defend their view (like in 1981 when they said VAT 4956 was defective and unreliable, or 2011 when they said VAT 4956 completely supports their view). The fact is that the JW position is indefensible, so after JW apologists’ paltry attempts (such as their easily refuted claims about VAT 4956) at justifying their doctrine fail, they just fall back to the unbiblical mantra of ‘70 years of exile’. They don’t really care about the actual facts because of the powerful delusion connected to their end-times beliefs.

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No need for vacillation but simply keeping up with the fact that scholarship improves or advance over time so now we have a more positive view of VAT 4956 due to Furuli's research.

The 'unbiblical mantra of 70 years of exile' is well supported by major Jewish historians and others such as Rainer Albertz and is consistent with the subject of 'Exile' in the OT history.

We show our concern for facts and that is why we have published such books as Aid and INSIGHT which a complete history for the Divided Monarchy and NB Period also our facts are well presented in your pretty chart on JW Chronology which proves that we rely on all of the facts and nothing but the facts for we are a people of facts so to speak.!!!

scholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Vidqun

Your post has some facts right but the history and chronology of events is rather muddled.so i suggest you read the articles under the headings of 'Nebuchadnezzer', 'Jehoiakim' and 'Zedekiah' in our INSIGHT volumes for a more accurate reconstruction of the history for the Neo-Babylonian Period and that of the Divided Monarchy.

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Scholar, the Israelites seventy years of servitude include 3 sieges, 5 deportations, and eventually the destruction of Jerusalem. Nebuchadnezzar had a lot of patience with the Jews, but eventually, his patience would run out. The Biblical record compares well with the Babylonian Chronicles

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False. The 70 years did not include sieges, five deportations but could only have begun after the Fall of Jerusalem causing an Exile under Babylon's domination leaving a desolate and depopulated Land all consistent with Jeremiah's prophecy and confirmed by Ezra the historian along with Josephus.

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Pharoah Necho’s campaign in northern Syria coincides with the brief reign of Jehoahaz, who was deposed on Necho’s return shortly after 1 Tishri (late Sept) 609, at which time Jehoiakim’s accession begins. First year of Jehoiakim, Tishri 608 (Sept–Oct) to Elul 607 (Aug–Sept). Third year of Jehoiakim, Tishri 606 (Sept–Oct) to last of Elul, 605 (Oct 6). This is the twenty-first year of Nabopolasar and the accession year of Nebuchadrezzar. Battle of Carchemish, late May to early June 605; Nabopolasar’s death Aug 15/16, 605. Nebuchadrezzar’s coronation Sept 7, 605. The accession year of Nebuchadrezzar = the third year of Jehoiakim. First (regnal) year of Nebuchadrezzar = the fourth year of Jehoiakim.

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You need to this inaccurate history especially to Jehoiakim's 'third year'.

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Jehoiakim, son of Josiah, was king of Judah (Dan. 1:1). Zedekiah was the last king. How likely is it that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in 607 BCE, before his victory over the Egyptians in 605 BCE? He wasn’t even king yet. His father died in 605 BCE. From there figure in 3 sieges and 5 deportations. Only in his nineteenth year did he burn the temple and destroy Jerusalem. 587/586 BCE is a much better option for the destruction of Jerusalem.

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This is a muddle so read the INSIGHT articles.

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The above can be proved from the Scriptures. See also A. R. Green (1982). “The Chronology of the Last Days of Judah: Two Apparent Discrepancies.” Journal of Biblical Literature, 101, pp. 71, 72. I have additional references for those that are interested.
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I have this article already in my library along with many others of a similar ilk.
scholar JW
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150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

Entirely false, and unsupported by the Bible despite your claims to respect it as a source. The Bible indicates Babylon’s dominance of 70 years which definitely ended in 539 BCE, which therefore began in 609 BCE, which is when Babylon conquered Assyria and became the ‘world power’. The Bible further indicates that most of the Jews were exiled 11 years prior to Jerusalem’s destruction and others were exiled 5 years later, and that some Jews returned to rebuild the temple in 538 BCE. According to the Bible, most of the Jews were in exile for 59 years, some were in exile for 49 years, and others were in exile for 44 years. The Bible DOES NOT MENTION ‘70 years of exile’, for which I have provided biblical support at links already provided. But feel free to provide evidence to the contrary instead of just making assertions. 🤣

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When the Bible refers or explains the 70 years as a period of servitude to Babylon, a period when the Land of Judah was desolate and that the Jews were exiled in Babylon then these three elements constitute an Exile-the Exile as termed by scholars today. The dominance of Babylon for 70 years by any definition of the word 'exile' is only one of these constitutive elements.

Exilic scholars do not end the Exile with the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE but only at their return accepted to be 537 BCE or thereabouts for the Fall of Babylon simply was an event making possible the release of the Exiles in Babylon.

The Bible indicates quite clearly that the Exile did not begin with the first deportation of the Jews some 10 years prior but only during the reign of Zedekiah as described in 2 Chron.36.

The Bible does not mention the expression '70 years of Exile' and equally it also does not mention the expression '70 years of domination' either but the Bible is descriptive of the 70 years and is described as one period of servitude/ 'having to serve Babylon', desolation/'land reduced to ruins' and exile/ 'at Babylon'- all according to Jeremiah.

No need for assertions or wild claims but sticking to God's Word of truth!!!!

scholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Mean Mr Mustard

It's not that Jerimiah was or was not "all about" the Exile. He talks about it. But he doesn't equate it to the 70 years.

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False. Ezra and Daniel when referring to the Exile quote Jeremiah's prophecy of the 70 years thus proving that Jeremiah linked the Exile with the 70 years.

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The consequences of the exile is irrelevant to this topic. But again, above, you equate the exile with the servitude. The servitude started long before the exile, and its the servitude that lasted 70 years.

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That is because the 70 years was the Exile, a period of servitude during which the Land was desolate. Certainly, the Jews came into servitude to Neb 10 years prior to the Fall which event began the 70 years as attested by Daniel, Ezra and Josephus.

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No, it's literally the opposite.

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False for you have it arse about

scholar JW

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150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

hahaha 🤣 poor 'scholar' insists that the 70 years 'must' begin "not earlier" than 607 BCE because it is 70 years before the year they say the Jews 'must' have returned from exile, which they dogmatically say 'must' have been in 537 because it is 70 years after 607 ♻. (The correct year is 538 BCE as indicated by Ezra and Josephus, but at 'best' - from the JW perspective - it cannot in any case be definitely stated that they returned in 537.) Of course, the Bible never mentions an "exile of 70 years", and irrefutably says Babylon's 70 years ended when Babylon's king was 'called to account', which definitely happened in 539 BCE. But even if the Bible did say there were an exile of 70 years (which wouldn't make sense as a period starting at an unspecified future time in the context of Jeremiah 29, set in 594 BCE or 614 in JW years), they still wouldn't have anything beyond circular reasoning for their insistence on 607-537. Additionally, the only way 70 years would make any sense as 'years of exile' to the Jews already in Babylon would be for it to refer to the start of their exile in early 597 BCE (617 in JW chronology), which would mean they would expect to return home in 547 BCE (JW years). Little wonder that JW literature never mentions the year for the setting of Jeremiah chapter 29 (though two issues of The Watchtower, from way back in 1964 and 1979, connect '614 BCE' with chapter 28).

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HA HA. The simple fact of the matter is that there was a Jewish Exile of 70 years duration ending in 537BCE or according to scholars roundabout that time so counting backwards one arrives at a date of 607 BCE not 586 or 587BCE. Thus the historical fact of the Jewish Exile of 70 years even if you wish to end it at 539 BCE still does not give you 586 or 587 BCE. Big Pwoblem here.

scholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

No, those are still just tools, not sources. And the third one is a date converter, not a 'data converter' (whatever that is).

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Can be referred to as either or tools or sources depending on application by the reader

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Aside from that being an inherently fallacious assertion, the claims were examined on this very forum and found to be incorrect. There is a reason the JW's alternative chronology has not been published in any actual journals.
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Hardly!. Simply different opinions were posted on this forum but the fact that WT Chronology is not published in any journals is irrelevant because our Chronology is made available to the public and has been published on many opposing websites yours included as a pretty chart.,
scholar JW
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