Posts by scholar

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Regarding Ann O'Maly's paper 'Fact-checking 'VAT4956.com' I sent a copy to Rolf Furuli receiving his reply by email this morning for his comment and it is just as I always suspected that the differences between experts regarding this tablet amounts to Methodology and the use of different tools or resources. Furuli offers the following comment on O' Maly's paper:

ASTRO PROGRAMS: Furuli, WT author for the Watchtower, Nov.1, 2011 and O' Maly use different astro-programs. Furuli's use of The SkyX is the preferred choice by professional astronomers in the USA. O'Maly uses the Cartes du Ciel 4.2.1 . Furuli comments on this that "For positions in the sixth century BCE, there can be a difference of a half degree, or in some instances even more between different astro-programs".

THE CALCULATED POSITIONS: O'Maly used a hypothesis based on a ellipitical coordinate system as explained on page 2 in her paper. Contrariwise, Furuli used no a system but rather what an observer/ Babylonian scribes saw when looking at the sky on a certain date or putting it simply bt direct observation whereupon he chose to use the Sky x program.

Furuli notes that he had assisted the brother in the Writing Department who wrote the two articles on Chronology with ongoing discussions and the exchanging of drafts for two years prior to the publishing of the two articles. During that period Furuli asked him to find two Witnesses with astronomical knowledge who could test his astro calculations. Furuli met one of the two researchers 15 years ago who had given a lecture at an international astronomical congress in Oslo, Norway. Furuli comments that the findings of these two matched exactly his findings with the only difference of a few minutes in some places.

Furuli further comments that he does not endorse the hypothesis that the Babylonian scribes used the elliptic system as does o' Maly and others but he believes that the calculations of the scribes were not theoretical but based on historical data. The same celestial phenomena would occur at the same intervals, for example, the 18 year cycle of the Moon, such periodic phenomena were the basis for their calculations.

Furuli also advises readers that in his 2nd edn of his Assyrian, Babylonian and Egyptian Chronology all the coordinates of each of these positions namely the 13 lunar sets is given so one could compare O'Maly's positions with his by means of the SkyX program using the coordinates in each case and see which position is correct.

So we have different experts who have different opinions based on their own hypotheses and different methodologies.

scholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

It is not the case that a significant majority of scholars prefer 586, but any who do are wrong. No "poblem" for me whatsoever. Even mother Watch Tower disagrees with you.

The Watchtower, 1 October 2011, page 31:

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Most scholars prefer 586 not 587 BCe. Keep up reading the WT for you may be converted to 607 BCE

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Most translations of Jeremiah 29:10 properly refer to 70 years for Babylon. Even in the rendering of the few translations that incorrectly allude to 70 years as a period at Babylon, the 70 years doesn't include the journey home, and allows the 70 years to end before attention is given to their return. But the JW interpretation is a distorted mess because they say the 70 years (which supposedly started more than a decade after most of the Jews were already in exile) ended only once they'd arrived in Judea. Worse still, in the JW interpretation, most of the Jews are in exile for over 80 years, some are in exile for less than 70 years and others are in exile for about 65 years.

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Traditional renderings favour 'at Babylon' rather than 'for Babylon' and the NWT is in very good company in this respect.. The 70 years as explained in our publications is simple and clear as the Return was in 537 BCE, the Jewish Exile lasted 70 years so it must have begun in 607 BCE with the Fall. You talk about a 'distorted mess' then you should look at the journal articles on the subject and you will see a mess indeed just like your pretty chart.

scholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

hahaha... poor 'scholar' had to resort to throwing a tantrum. Maybe you should write to Watch Tower to tell them they're wrong that most secular historians say 587 BCE. 🤣
No need for most scholars prefer 586 BCE.

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150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

It is not the case that most scholars support 586, but any who do are wrong. No "poblem" for me whatsoever.

Says you who is not a scholar and unaware of the controversy within scholarship over this dilemma so it is a big problem not of my making but noting that it does exist.

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It is not the case that most scholars support 586, but any who do are wrong. No "poblem" for me whatsoever.

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I care little for your opinion as you never contribute anything anew except some pretty charts.

scholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

No. It doesn't. Not even slightly. Since it was “only when the 70 years have been fulfilled [that] judgement against Babylon [would] proceed”, then the conquest of Babylon in 539 BCE necessarily follows the end of the 70 years. Which was then followed by the Jews returning to Judea.

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Yes, it does for Jeremiah does not discuss the judgement against Babylon until 25:12 through to vs 14 and Daniel does not discuss Babylon at all in ch.9 but refers to the judgement not on Babylon but on Jerusalem with its 70 years having to be fulfilled after the Fall of Babylon.

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586 is the wrong year. Hardly his best work. A notable individual advancing the wrong year only confused the issue, but the correct year is quite definitely 587 BCE.

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According to you but most scholars prefer 586 rather than 587 so you have a BIG POBLEM here

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You haven't even attempted a valid response with regard to what the passage actually says. Your interpretation requires that the Jews arrive in Judea, the 70 years end, and then attention is given to their return. It is a complete distortion of the passage. I realise it's impossible for you to provide a valid response because your entire position is wrong. But you could at least try.

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No. Plain common sense reads the verse as a prophecy that with the fulfilment of the 70 years at their Return would be the fulfilment of that original promise of restoration. There can be no other suitable explanation of this verse. My suggestion to you is to consult other translations more particular how this verse is rendered in the NWT-Reference which is more to the point.

scholar JW
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150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

Really? When's that going to start?
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Already began many years ago.
scholar JW
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150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Rocketman123

Response to Jeffro's nonsense:

Babylon's 70 years can be viewed as a round period, but the period from Babylon's conquest of Assyria in 609 BCE until Persia's conquest of Babylon in 539 BCE is exactly 70 year

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False: The 70 years are viewed by many scholars as a round number in order to accommodate a certain view or interpretation of the biblical texts and NB Chronology but the historical facts are quite explicit that the 70 years is a definite historical period.

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---The period from the destruction of Jerusalem until the Jews returned to Judea is 49 years, which is the period indicated at Leviticus 25:8 (bear in mind that Leviticus was completed during the Persian period, so the reference to this duration is almost certainly not just a coincidence).

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False: This is a mere opinion for the 70 years is the period from the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE until the Return in 537 BCE and has no bearing on the sabbath years in Lev.25:8 for this was a regulation under the Law but Jeremiah's seventy years was a prophecy.

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--Jerusalem was definitely destroyed in 587 BCE, being the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar including accession year and 18th year excluding accession year.

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False. Jerusalem could only have been destroyed in 607 BCE with the 18th/19th year of Nebuchadnezzer, scholars cannot agree as to whether 586 or 587 BCE proposed dates for this event.

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Most of the Jews had already been exiled in early 597 BCE

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Many Jews were deported to Babylon 10 years prior to the Fall but the Exile did not commence until the Fall in 607 BCE lasting 70 years.

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It is also worth noting that the 'prophecies' about Babylon in the Bible, which were heavily edited after the initial writing, are more accurately viewed as descriptions of what happened framed in a religious context.
--This is speculation without any evidence, utter nonsense.
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scholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

Non sequitur. Unless you’re saying that you don’t know the contents of your own library until you post it on this forum. And you reject the contents of the books you boast about having. 🤦‍♂️

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I know what is in my books for these are readily consulted in order to demolish apostate nonsense and have the freedom to accept or reject the contents.

scholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

Who cares what you ‘have in your library’. You’re still wrong.

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Having an adequate library to hand means that I can disprove your nonsense. HA HA HA

scholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

Sounds like a decline into ‘JCanon/Larsinger’ mentality. 😒 SDA theology is equally nuts (JW’s Adventist cousins really, given their common origins) so not keeping good company even without the JW rules about ‘bad association’. Somewhat enlightening about your pathology though.

All that effort and still doggedly clinging to JW propaganda.

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SDA Theology might be nuts in part but the scholarly community are indebted to the work of Edwin Thiele the celebrated Chronologist who championed 586 BCE for the Fall and not 587 BCE.

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Tell us, oh great scholar, how attention was given to the Jews’ return after the Jews had already returned (as is required by the JW interpretation of Jeremiah 29:10-14). 🤣

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Happy to. Simple the verse explains that Jehovah would fulfil His promise for the jews to be released from their captivity and exile returning home to restore pure worship.

scholar JW