Posts by scholar

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven 7

The JW theory is obviously convoluted and confusing.

If we examine Daniel 2, it is obvious that the kingdom would be established “in the days of those kings” (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome), not 1,900 years later

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It is not obvious at all. Daniel 2: 44 clearly relates to a future time when God's Kingdom would exercise dominion over all the Earth by replacing all human governments.

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The vision of the great tree has nothing to do, contextually or otherwise, with the Jerusalem kingdom but describes King Nebuchadnezzar’s greatness, his abasement, and subsequent reinstatement (cf. Dan. 4:1-37)

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Nonsense, the tree dream celebrates God's Kingdom as the fulfilment of the dream as a lesson of Sovereignty.

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There are no contextual links between the “times” in Daniel 4 and Revelation 12 that would necessitate an interpretative connection. It is wrong to tie different texts together simply to prove a predetermined, unscriptural poin

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Nonsense, the exegetical links are the lexical meaning of 'times' and 'time' both in Aramaic and Greek and the simple fact that both books share the common theme of 'God's Kingdom as well as the fact that both books are prophetic and are of Eschatology- 'Lord's Day' and 'time of distress and 'time of the end'.

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Though in poetic and prophetic Biblical literature “days” can represent periods of times (or “years”), figurative language cannot be forced into a literal application. (Notice in the above quote that “seven times” is semi-literal but becomes 2,520 days—figurative—then to 2,520 years—literal. It is too inconsistent, and God is not the author of confusion!)

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This is the essence of sound biblical exegesis

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Obviously, with such flawed interpretations of Biblical prophecy, the third question—When did Jesus become king?—is answered incorrectly by Jehovah’s Witnesses WDJBK

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The said scholar answers that question triumphantly to wit- 1914 CE

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven

Regarding when Jesus became king, McDaniel writes:

The truth is, Jesus became king when He ascended to heaven in AD 30 and established the church. Before that time, Jesus (along with others) promised that the kingdom was at hand (cf. Matt. 4:17). The first century was the “fullness of the time” (cf. Gal. 4:4; Eph. 1:10), the predicted age of the Roman Empire when God would establish His eternal kingdom (cf. Dan. 2:44; 7:13-14). When the Lord returned to heaven, He possessed (and possesses) all authority (cf. Matt. 28:18), sat down on His Father’s throne (cf. Heb. 1:1-3; Eph. 1:18-23), and admitted the saved into His kingdom (cf. Col. 1:12-14).

So Fisherman and Scholar

Notice that Paul and all Christians at the time were saved and had been transferred from darkness into an already existing kingdom, the Kingdom of Christ in century one.

Colossians 1:13 KJV — Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

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So how do you explain Daniel 2:44 and other related texts in Daniel that refer to God's kingdom as fully developed in Daniel 4?

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven

I concur with the New Testament....not a man-made, man-run organization that never did get a prophecy right.

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If this is what you really believe then what then is your Eschatology for Eschatology is a major subject of the NT?

The Lord's people as a Church or Organization must be interested in Prophecy and its fulfilment so are you involved in Prophecy? Do you have a keen prophetic outlook as encouraged by the Apostle Peter by paying attention to the prophetic Word?

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven 7

You list 11 Assumptions which the said scholar is able to respond to each Assumption in kind. But the difficulty that you have is that you have no Eschatology at all and the Poster of those 11 Assumptions must account for his or her Eschatology. The teaching of 1914 as doctrine is a celebration of Eschatology a subject of which is well mentioned in many leading Bible commentaries but the Witnesses because they have discerned as the Lord and the prophet Daniel lauded that God's people would be people of discernment, able to understand the times we live in today as Bible prophecy is being fulfilled and heeding the Lord's admonition to ' Keep On the Watch!1

The problem that unbelievers and sceptics alike have is that 1914 with the ending of the Gentile Times was believed to be a meaningful event at the time of 1917 when many prominent religious leaders in Christendom published a manifesto regarding the ending of the Gentile Times which in accordance with Biblical Theology introduces the subject of Eschatology and it is this simple fact that underpins 1914 as sound biblical doctrine.

Further, it is a fact that if you read Bible commentaries you will notice that considerable emphasis is placed on Eschatology but it is only the Witnesses that make it relevant in their preaching and teaching ministry.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

ozziepost

I myself am convinced of more orthodox Christian theology.

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'Orthodox Christian Theology' which is rather a meaningless statement does have some reference to Eschatology so if what you believe is correct then What then is your Eschatology? For it is a an important part of the Nicene Creed.

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ust so you’re clear, I consider the whole 1914 thing to be bunkum-

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Nevertheless of your personal opinion What then is your Eschatology for one thing must be admitted as true is that 1914 is an expression or testament of Witness Biblical theology grounded in Eschatology, a subject not taught in Christendom further compounded by the heeding of the Lord's exhortation to 'Keep on the Watch'!

scholar JW

11

What Ended in 1914?

by BoogerMan in

1913!.

scholar

Boogerman

Gentile Times

Birth of God's Kingdom

Expulsion of Satan the Devil and his demons from Heaven to the Earth

Outbreak of the Great War

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven

Sorry, as I see it, none of the so-called evidence you present lifts the secondary fulfilment theory above speculation or indicates that Daniel 4 is about 1914.

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The evidence that I

set out is based not on eisegesis but sound exegesis so I cannot understand why you are not convinced by the facts that I listed.

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Are you suggesting that Jesus really knew the timing of his parousia based on Daniel 4 but just did not know how to express it because the year 1914 is "tabulated in a very different calendrical system"?

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The fact that Jesus described the Gentile Times or the appointed times of the nations is an immediate connection to Daniel 4 and He could express it as to a year in our modern calendar for that would have been meaningless.

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Let me suggest that your inability to find a NonJW scholar that sees a dual fulfillment to Daniel 4 .... is because it is simply not supported by the text. It's just another example of WTS eisegesis

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No, it is because WT scholars are too smart.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

ozziepost

Perhaps we need that “clarified

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No problem. The simple fact is that 1914 vCE saw a confluence of events that arose and soon developed consequentially in 1914 and immediately thereafter:

Beginnings of the Great War in 1914

October, 1914 saw the birth of God's Kingdom

Consequentially, Satan cast out of Heaven to the Earth evidenced by the beginning of the Sign of the Lord's presence which was clearly identified by the Great War in its full flourish

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

NonCoinCollector

esus would have known that Jerusalem wasn't destroyed by Babylon in 607 BCE. Having witnessed the events as an angel, he would have known the exact day.

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Nonsense. Jesus would have known the exact year that Jerusalem fell in King Zedekiah's 11th year and King Nebuchadnezzer's 18th year which in our modern calendar not used in Jesus' day is properly calculated as 607 BCE

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven

I see no evidence let alone proof that Daniel 4 has a secondary fulfillment. I see only speculation. If it is not stated, it is merely assumed.

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The evidence is as summarized:

1. The fact that in Daniel 4 there several references about God's Kingdom

2. The fact that the book of Daniel has 'God's Kingdom as its main theme

3. The fact that the Aramaic word iddan and iddanim meaning 'times' and 'times' has both a lieral and figurative meaning according to Hebrew Lexicons

4. The fact that Jesus in Luke 21:24 made a direct reference to 'times' in connection with the city of Jerusalem which is consistently iswed in the Bible as a antitype representing again God' s Kingdom

5. The fact that the Old Greek version of Daniel 4 makes a direct refeence to the Fall of the Judean Monarchy as faound in the commentary on Daniel in the Heremeneia commentary series by Danielic scholar John Collins.

6. The fact that Daniel 4 could not have just had a literal meaning of 'seven years' because such supporters do not believe that this was an historical event and is not found in NB Chronology that Nebuchadnezzer was vacant from the throne for those seven years.

7. The fact that schlars observe the relevance of Lukan Eschatology in both Luke and Acts

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Can you quote a nonJW "scholar" who supports this WTS claim?

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No

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Why do you think Jesus couldn't predict 1914 based on Daniel 4?

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The year 191`4 is tabulated in a very different calendrical system to that used in Jesus day but a clue to His thinking in relation to His Kingdom is given in the book of Revelation wherein He makes refence to the 'Lord's Day' which we believe to have begun in 1914 CE

scholar JW