Posts by scholar

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Of course, the entire remainder of chapter 11 also refers to the Seleucid period, along with other references in chapters 2, 7 & 8, but I have low expectations about the quality of your responses anyway.

--

Nonsense, there are no references at all to the Seleucids in chapters 2, 7 or 8 but only to a part of ch.11 as mentioned in a previous post.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

Well that’s wrong even according to JW nonsense. But no, no part of Daniel refers to the Roman Empire.

----

The section that refers to the Roman Empire is Dan. 11:20-26 which includes the Roman rulers, Augustus, Tiberius and Aurelian.

--

Already provided. But I also already said that some of the stories are adapted from older tales (for example the story supposedly told by Nebuchadnezzar in chapter 4 incorporates details from The Prayer of Nabonidus). I also never claimed that it “deals wholly with the Seleucids”, as it also contains details about the Neo-Babylonian, Achmaenid and Macedonian periods.

--

You have not provided any facts to support your opinion. There is simply no evidence that the accounts in Daniel derive from earlier stories as you claim. The book of Daniel deals with the current World Power, Babylonian and successive Powers through history including Med0-Persian and Roman through to the Modern Age with the continuing struggle between the kings of the north and south and their respective dynasties which included in brief the Seleucids.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

Wrong as usual. Daniel 11:20 alludes to Heliodorus being sent (around 178 BCE) by Seleucus IV Philopator (ruled 187 - 175 BCE) to demand a tax from Jerusalem’s temple treasures, hence an exactor. It has nothing at all to do with a census (that the author of Luke places in the wrong year) that would not require people returning to the place of their birth anyway.

---

Wrong. Dan 11: 20 refers not to Seleucus IV but to the Roman Emperor Caesar Augustus who caused an official to conduct a census of registration in 2 BCE.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

You already did:

--

Only a small section in Dan.11

---

Of course, the entire remainder of chapter 11 is also refers to the Seleucid period, along with other references in chapters 2, 7 & 8, but I have low expectations about the quality of your responses anyway.

---

Nope. The remainder of Dan. 11 pertains to the Roman Empire.

I am still awaiting your proof that the entire book was of 2nd century BC composition and deals wholly with the Seleucids.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

The movie Alien contains chronological data ‘proving’ the movie was made hundreds of years in the future 🤦‍♂️ Must be a prophecy 😂

Can you really be so stupid to genuinely not understand that someone can very easily refer to events in the past at some later time?

--

That is your opinion for the simple fact is that the book of Daniel in its entirety contains regnal data which can be dated in terms of history and chronology giving the time when specific events occurred. Such data is consistent with constructing a history of that period. if there was no such data then the whole account could be termed as a myth or of a later time of writing such as the 2hd century BC consistent with your interpretation.

The presence of those six regnal data conclusively proves that Daniel contains or describes events in the sixth century thus it can be reasonably assumed that the time of composition was of that time unless proved otherwise. So you produce cogent facts that prove a 2nd-century composition.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Disillusioned JW

scholar, why do you think the book of Daniel says "seal up the book" of Daniel? If you think the book was sealed, when do you think it became unsealed? Do you think it was unsealed in the 2nd century B.C.E.? Do you think it was sealed centuries earlier than the 2nd century B.C.E.? In contrast, why do you think the book of Revelation says "do not seal up" the book of Revelation? What are your reasons?

---

The reason for sealing up the book of Daniel was simply to show that it would only be understood or revealed at a much later time as it was beyond human understanding onlt to be revealed to the 'holy ones'-'those having insight' Dan. 12:3. Such a future time of revelation would be as Dan 12:1 when Michael would stand up was from 1914 CE.

Daniel from its time of composition in the 6th century BCE remained sealed right through until 1914 CE The reason why Daniel was to remain sealed right up to the appointed time for its disclosure from 1914 CE and that Revelation was not to be sealed during the appointed time- Rev. 22:10 shows a different context in time and purpose. Daniel was written for a future purpose as prophecy Revelation was written for the 'Lord's Day' beginning in 1914 CE and during that time its contents were to be publicised as shown by the Bible Students preaching its content.

---

Do you think the references in the two books about "seal up" or "do not seal up" (as the case may be) provide clues as when the two books were written?

--

Most definitely. In the case of Daniel such a commandment 'to seal up' proves it was a book of prophecy written at the time the dreams and visions were received which are dated historically. Revelation is also a similar apocalyptic genre in the prophecy given at a future specified time of its revealing which has been calculated to be 1914 CE based on the 'Gentile Times' mentioned in Dan.4.

---

When do you think chapters 3-14 of the book of 2nd Esdras (the book that is referred to at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Esdras ) were written, and do you think the biblical Ezra wrote them? [Esdras is a Greco-Latin variation of the Hebrew name 'Ezra'.] What are your reasons?

---

2 Esdras also known as the 'Apocalypse of Ezra' or '4 Ezra' was written in the last decade of the 1st century CE.so Ezra the Jewish historian could not have written such an apocalypse.

--

Why do you believe that Porphyry having been a critic of Christianity invalidates
Porphyry and his criticism of the the Book of Daniel? Why couldn't his criticism of the book of Daniel be correct, despite his criticism of Christianity? Do you believe that the WT's criticism of the Catholic church and of Christendom invalidates the WT and its criticism of the books which Protestants call Apocryphal but which the Roman Catholic Church calls parts of the Bible (such as the books of Tobit, Judith, and Ecclesiasticus [the latter is also called the Book of Sirach])? What are you reasons

--

Well at the very least one would question his motive and whether his proofs or thesis stands up to a critical examination. His criticism must be based on facts so what were his facts? Christendom has endorsed other Apocryphal books which have been added to the Bible Canon so that is a matter for such bodies but their inclusion again demands scrutiny and WT has certainly made such a criticism. The contents of such books tells their own story and it is on this basis alone that canonicity is established.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

Basically, this boils down to: ‘nothing in Daniel indicates that it was written during the Seleucid period apart from the part that very obviously does, so my best explanation is that the book is magical.’

---

Correct. There are no facts or any evidence whatsoever that proves Daniel is a 2nd-century composition. The book itself contains six chronological data that prove its 6th-century composition as part of its external evidence . Internal evidence for a much earlier composition is based on other factors such as other literary sources, linguistics etc.

The most recent scholarship which debunks the Maccabean Thesis is former Witness Semitic scholar, Rolf Furuli in his When Was The Book Of Daniel Written? A Philological, Linguistic, And Historical Approach, 2017, Awatu Publishers, 330 pp.

Jeffro and his ilk would be too scared to read this book!!! LOL

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

t may be the case that Porphyry is the earliest known extant source (or possibly just the most well known early source) for recognising the time Daniel was actually written, but that fact is less important than 'scholar' tries to make out. 'scholar' attempted the fallacious argument that Porphyry is invalidated because he was a 'critic of Christianity'. Outside of pandering to religious superstitions, texts that identify specific events that actually happened (such as references in Daniel that are widely acknowledged to refer to specific events in the Seleucid period) are routinely recognised as being written after the events. It is fallacious to pretend that 'maybe it really is prophecy' when there is actually no evidence to believe that such is even possible let alone likely.

---

There is no maybe about it. Scholars agree that the Maccabean Thesis or the idea that Daniel was a 2nd century BC historical composition is traced back to Porphyry. The fact was that he was a critic of Christianity so his motives are suspect especially when the book claims to be a literary work of prophecy.

Further, there is nothing in Daniel that provides any historical support for a later composition for the only reference applicable to the Seleucid Period is confined to a few verses in Dan. 11:5-19.which of course confirms that the book is prophecy as it contains a reference to a future period along with other fulfillments.

---
had responded to your earlier suggestion that "the Roman Empire and its dissolution seem to well fit the Daniel chapter 2". The fact that Rome existed prior to the writing of Daniel does not justify that claim

--

The Roman Empire came into existence long after Daniel was written with the advent of Augustus Caesar in 27 BCE which was foretold and described in Dan.11:20 thus proving that Rome existed long after Daniel's time of writing in the 6th century BC.

---

Sometimes people imagine things, and sometimes things they imagine might even turn out to be correct to varying degrees. Some people are futurists as a profession. It isn't evidence of anything 'mystical', and whilst introspection might help people to focus their thoughts, it isn't some 'special subconscious awareness of the universe'.

--

Critics of Bible prophecy abound even to the present originating with Porphyry and present with Jeffro thus are highly susceptible to imaginative theories or dreams!!!!

---

Most of the parts of Daniel that mention God's kingdom (or sovereignty) at all express that God is sovereign without any need for it to be 'established' in the future. 'scholar' echoes the Watch Tower Society's claim that "Time and again, the Bible book of Daniel develops a central theme. It keeps pointing forward to the establishment of God’s Kingdom under the rulership of his Son, Jesus." (The Watchtower, 1 October 2014, page 11). That claim is expressly false, not only because of the obvious fact that Daniel never mentions Jesus, but also because Daniel does not 'keep pointing' to a future establishment of God's kingdom. The two verses of Daniel (2:44 and 7:14) that refer to a future kingdom are from paired sections of the chiastic structure of chapters 2 to 7, and it would be surprising if that idea was not expressed twice in that structure. But it is not the book's 'main theme'.

---

Nonsense, it is entirely appropriate to refer to God's Kingdom or Sovereignty as being established as it it is only in this case that it can be realized historically as an identifiable event that is fully developed theologically in Daniel as something 'breaking through' climatically onto the World stage.

Daniel does not mention Jesus by name but describes the Messiah and His future coming as a dramatic event in history and we know for a fact that God's Kingdom was established in October, 1914 CE based on Daniel's prophecy. The' kingdom' is thematic in Daniel and is generally recognized by scholarship.

Rather than just considering the chiastic structure limited to chapters 2-7 as you have done, Why not consider the chiastic structure of the whole book which begins with the Exile as a story and concludes with an Exile in the form of a vision?

--
Jews consider Daniel to be part of the Writings, not the Prophets, which explains why they are less concerned about providing esoteric interpretations, especially involving 'our day'. The fact that there are relatively few Jewish analyses of Daniel is actually another clue that Jews closer to the time, just as now, did not consider its content 'prophetic'.

--

Nonsense, the Jews were interested in Apocalypticism as shown by the many books of the Pseudepigrapha and other writings. You need to learn more about the role of Daniel as a tremendous influence on Jewish and Christian thought.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

Who else but the Watch Tower Society could say they’ve ‘always’ been consistent about something for the period that they’ve said that thing. Amazing! 🤦‍♂️ But in that time they’ve changed their interpretation of verses 17-19 (which they now concede to also relate to the Seleucid period), 25-26 and 40-45.

--

Unlike your static worldview, our worldview is dynamic and consistent with the progression of true knowledge.

scholar JW