scholar

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Posts by scholar

• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

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  scholar

  Jeffro

  You are in big trouble with Pierre 1977!!

  scholar JW
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

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  scholar

  Pierre1977

  I didn't like to have seen the start of a doctrinal discussion after a person died. This is all scholar JW's fault! Why did you start it? Don't the Jehovah's Witnesses know about the verse about throwing pearls to pigs? Do you think any Jehovah's Witness will read this here and be assured of his faith or do you seriously expect any non-believes to be convinced. You should have kept your opinion to yourself. But anyway, while we're at it I am going to respond to some points here. Note: I believe in the Bible and the Biblical God. But I don't care about the Jehovah's Witness' issue of 538 vs. 537 B. C. E. here

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  The said scholar began the discussion of COJ's thesis in response to the initial post of slimboyfat and it was felt that the other side of the story with some corrections was necessary.

  scholar JW
  
  
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

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• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  Poor addled ‘scholar’. He imagines that preparation and travel has ‘only now been considered’. He makes the same kind of pathetic jibe every time it is ‘acknowledged’ that ‘there was an exile’ (as distinct from the nonexistent ‘70-year exile’) as if it’s new Informatio

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  The said scholar has pushed and prodded you to concede the necessity of sufficient passage of time for not only the length of the Return journey but also the preparations required and now you whine and squeal because you are forced to make this concession in a vain attempt to support the nonsense date of 538 BCE

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  Desperate to claim 538 BCE is ‘impossible’, he throws 537 BCE under the bus by pointing out that one person suggests 533BCE

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  The fact is that Chronologist Steinmann recognizes what WT scholars have long said that there must be sufficient time of preparation as one of the many historical factors necessary for calculating the date of the Return in 537 BCE.

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  In reality, there was no ‘decree’ just for the Jews, but a general policy on Cyrus’s part of allowing former exiled peopleto be repatriated to quell social unrest. The biblical story is greatly overstated and it is indeed true that many scholars recognise that the full number took a much longer time to return, with several separate groups returning at different times. As I already showed, the stories in Ezra and Nehemiah obviously conflate details, evidenced by the fact that they can’t decide whether it was Jeshua or Ezra who officiated. However, there is no problem at all for an initial contingent to have returned in 538 BCE

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  What other rubbish. The Decree was for the Jews specifically and its nature and circumstances are well discussed by the scribe and historian Ezra thus there is no problem at all for an initial contingent to have returned in 537 BCE as fully explained in WT publications.

  All of this has been thoroughly discussed on this forum but Jeffro has been misled by COJ's masterful deception and thus robbed of thinking ability.

  scholar JW

  
  
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

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  2. 
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• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  A standard retort from JW apologists about the Jews returning from Babylon to Judea in 'only' 6 months after Cyrus' decree is that it 'wouldn't allow time for preparations'. This retort never includes any kind of breakdown of just how long it would take to prepare, nor does it account for the fact that the size of the group allowed for division of labour for the preparations. Instead, it is simply a fallacious argument from incredulity.
  

  Exact preparation times can only be speculated, but tasks could be divided among teams for responsibilities such as leadership, logistics, supplies, route planning etc, which would greatly reduce the time required for overall preparations. So the claim that it would be 'impossible' is entirely unfounded, particularly for people who were highly motivated to make the trip. And some of the many Jews who remained in Babylon might also have helped with the preparations.

  As far as the journey itself goes, covering just 25km per day (allowing for a comfortable 5km per hour with several rest periods) and allowing 3 rest days per week, the complete journey could be done in about 16 weeks (112 days), if taking the long route of about 1,600km as proposed by the Watch Tower Society rather than the more direct route of about 800km.

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  Nice to see that some level of journey preparation was necessary and that some consideration of the travel itself is now considered but you expect others to suspend their credibility and except that all such occurred within a few months in support of the ridiculous and impossible date of 538 BCE. If you are so confident about 538 BCE for the Return then why not present a breakdown of events with precise date beginning from the time of Cyrus' Decree?

  Prof. Andrew Steinmann in his From Abraham To Paul A Biblical Chronology proposes that the preparations and journey would have taken five years thus the Jews became resettled and built the altar in 533 BCE. (201, Concordia Publishing House, ST. Louis, pp.190-191).

  Further, Steimmann in his article 'A Chronological Note: The Return Of The Exiles Under Sheshbazzar And Zerubbabel (Ezra 1-2) in JETS, Sept, 2008, pp.513-522 states "Since no date is given in Ezra for Zerubbab's mission to Jerusalem, the date is usually given as 537 BC by those who accept Ezra's chronological statement as accurate but this date is usually offered with some reservation".A footnote '3' is affixed and it refers to the EBC commentary Ezra-Nehemiah, 1988 by Edwin Yamauchi "To express his uncertainty Yamauchi gives the date '537?'

  Thus, as you frequently refer to our Insight publication then you consider our explanation as to the historical and minor chronological reasons why 537 BCE is the only possible date for the Return.

  scholar JW
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

  1. 
  2. 
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• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  Basic arithmetic is beyond ‘scholar’s’ abilities.

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  Nothing to do with arithmetic.

  scholar JW
  
  
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  A Tabulation of fuzziness regarding the beginning of the 70 years:

  612 BCE - Fall of Nineveh=End of Assyrian Power

  609 BCE - End of Assyrian Power according to some scholars

  605 BCE - Nebs acc year.

  Which one was it? COJ settled on 609 BCE but recognized the viability of 605 BCE. Too fuzzy wuzzy!

  scholar JW
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  If only there were a way of determining which of the events was 70 years before 539BCE. 🤦‍♂️ I’ll give you a clue. It’s the one about which Insight definitively said “the Assyrian Empire had ended”.

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  However, in the previous paragraph Insight states for the Fall of Nineveh in 612/632 BCE that "Thus, the fierce Assyrian Empire came to an ignominious end" supported by 7 scriptural texts from the OT.

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  Now… when were those 7 years of Nebuchadnezzar’s alleged insanity? Remember, no ‘fuzziness’…

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  That is not my problem but for those who advocate the reliability and trustworthiness of NB Chronology to solve.

  scholar JW
  
  

  
  
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  See how the apologist makes up trite excuses for not being able to provide specific details but demands specific details from others. Despite the fact that I even provided details of his own denomination’s position that showed him to be wrong.

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  How can that be? When the said scholar has always provided details for that is what scholar does for he likes to help the little people..

  scholar JW
  
  
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

  1. 
  2. 
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• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  nsight on the Scriptures, vol. 1, p. 205:

  The Babylonian Chronicle B.M. (British Museum) 21901 recounts the fall of Nineveh … Ashur-uballit was trying to reconquer [Harran] after having been driven out. This record is in harmony with the account relative to the activity of Pharaoh Nechoh recorded at 2 Kings 23:29, which activity resulted in the death of King Josiah of Judah (c. 629 B.C.E.). This text states that “Pharaoh Nechoh the king of Egypt came up to the king of Assyria by the river Euphrates”—evidently to help him. “The king of Assyria” to whom Nechoh came may well have been Ashur-uballit II. Their campaign against Haran did not succeed. The Assyrian Empire had ended.

  Note that JW literature calls it 629BCE because of their broken chronology, but it actually identifies the specific event in 609BCE when Babylon completely conquered Assyria, exactly 70 years before Babylon was itself conquered.

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  Herein lies your problem for the fuzziness remains as the quoted paragraph and the following indicate that Nineveh fell in the 14th year of King Nabopolassar- 612 BCE/632 BCE but three years later in Nab's 17th- 609 BCE/629 BCE year the Assyrian King continued to press on regardless without success, thus you have a choice between 609 BCE or 612 BCE for the actual Fall of Assyria according to NB Chronology. The said scholar can see and feel the fuzziness!!! LOL!!

  The late COJ in his masterful deception published as GTR canvassed the idea that the events of 605 BCE were another alternative beginning for 70 years but this would shorten the period to 66 years which would another problem.

  scholar JW
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  common sense would dictate that the 70 years would have not some 'fuzzy' beginning but a distinct event in terms of history and chronology

  Also ‘scholar’:

  I would suggest that the vacancy must have occurred SOON after 607 BCE which was Neb's 18th regnal year.
  

  ‘Fuzzy’, and wrong even in the context of JW chronology.

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  Chronology has no place for fuzziness and if present as in your Chronology along with COJ's GTR shows that the Methodology is flawed unlike that of the celebrated WT scholars which have posited a definite beginning and end for the 70 years.

  scholar JW