Posts by scholar

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

Ezra used Nisan-based accession dating. You claim to understand this subject matter but you need every little thing explained to you.

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Prove it. We cannot be dogmatic about whether Ezra used the Nisan or Tishri accession based calendar as this is a matter of controversy within scholarship.

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Irrespective, Iyyar of 536BCE wasn’t part of Cyrus’ second year regardless of which of the dating systems is chosen, and therefore is not the year the temp foundations were laid. Despite your plaintive claims and desperate need for your religious superstitions, it isn’t a problem at all for a contingency of Jews to have returned to Jerusalem in 538BCE. (Though it is amusing that ‘all things are possible with God’ unless it’s inconvenient for JW dogma.

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WT scholars in harmony with Ezra 3:8 have thoughtfully determined that the temple foundation was laid in the second month 536 BCE.

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In summary, Babylon’s 70 years began when the last Assyrian king was defeated in 609BCE and ended when Babylon’s king was ‘called to account’ in 539 BCE. The Jewish exile began in early 597BCE, and Jerusalem’s desolation began in 587BCE (Ezekiel 40:1). After Babylon’s 70 years ended in 539BCE, attention was then given to the Jews’ return in 538BCE, after the land had rested 49 years (compare Leviticus 25:8). Temple reconstruction then began in Cyrus’ 2nd regnal year, 537 BCE

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Jeffro will not be happy!!

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

scholar' desperately needs it to be 'impossible' for a contingent of Jews to have prepared for a journey from Babylon to Judea in just a couple of months. Of course, it is entirely possible that teams of people could have made the necessary preparations, and many sources agree that 538 BCE is the correct year. But 'scholar' needs it to be impossible even though it is supposedly possible for God to accomplish anything.

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The said scholar has no need of desperation for the biblical evidence clearly indicates the impossibility for the contingent of Jews to have returned home in 538 BCE. But if Jeffro's imagination stretches that far then that is a matter for him. The historical account not only discusses the journey's preparations but there is also the time of the actual Decree and its proclamation throughout the Empire is an additional factor that disproves 538 BCE as a candidate for the Return.

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So, even though it is actually practically possible for the Jews to have organised a journey from Babylon to Jerusalem in a few months, in view of JW superstitions, it is especially preposterous that 'scholar' believes it is 'impossible'.
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Such a comment ignores all of the other factors that form part of the history of the Return as described by Ezra and the fact that precise chronological information is lacking, so based on what we do know and what we can know it would be impossible to accomplish such things within 12 months thus reason and the facts should move rather than imagination or some wild theory.
scholar JW
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362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

Look how doggedly the apologist tries to defend his ‘fuzzy’ assignment of 537BCE!

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Nothing fuzzy about 537 BCE as it conforms to the regnal data of Cyrus' reign with his issuing the Decree in his 1st year followed by the history of the publishing of the Decree and the extensive journey preparations following with a length of the journey thus arriving back home and resettled by the 7 month in either Cyrus' 1st or 2nd year dependent on the calendar used by Ezra and the precise time when Cyrus uttered the Decree.in his 1st year.

When you clear up the fuzziness of the beginning of the 70 years as to whether it occurred in 612, 609 or 605 BCE according to your advocacy of secular chronology then you can be credible.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

t is particularly amusing that the JW apologist argues that the entirely plausible return of a contingent of Jews in 538 BCE is ‘impossible’ but the same standard isn’t applied elsewhere.

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Only possible in your imagination for Ezra's detailed history of the event disproves 538 BCE and supports the more reasonable interpretation of 537 BCE for the Return as discussed in your favourite reference book Insight on the Scriptures.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

You are in big trouble with Pierre 1977!!

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Pierre1977

I didn't like to have seen the start of a doctrinal discussion after a person died. This is all scholar JW's fault! Why did you start it? Don't the Jehovah's Witnesses know about the verse about throwing pearls to pigs? Do you think any Jehovah's Witness will read this here and be assured of his faith or do you seriously expect any non-believes to be convinced. You should have kept your opinion to yourself. But anyway, while we're at it I am going to respond to some points here. Note: I believe in the Bible and the Biblical God. But I don't care about the Jehovah's Witness' issue of 538 vs. 537 B. C. E. here

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The said scholar began the discussion of COJ's thesis in response to the initial post of slimboyfat and it was felt that the other side of the story with some corrections was necessary.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

Poor addled ‘scholar’. He imagines that preparation and travel has ‘only now been considered’. He makes the same kind of pathetic jibe every time it is ‘acknowledged’ that ‘there was an exile’ (as distinct from the nonexistent ‘70-year exile’) as if it’s new Informatio

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The said scholar has pushed and prodded you to concede the necessity of sufficient passage of time for not only the length of the Return journey but also the preparations required and now you whine and squeal because you are forced to make this concession in a vain attempt to support the nonsense date of 538 BCE

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Desperate to claim 538 BCE is ‘impossible’, he throws 537 BCE under the bus by pointing out that one person suggests 533BCE

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The fact is that Chronologist Steinmann recognizes what WT scholars have long said that there must be sufficient time of preparation as one of the many historical factors necessary for calculating the date of the Return in 537 BCE.

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In reality, there was no ‘decree’ just for the Jews, but a general policy on Cyrus’s part of allowing former exiled peopleto be repatriated to quell social unrest. The biblical story is greatly overstated and it is indeed true that many scholars recognise that the full number took a much longer time to return, with several separate groups returning at different times. As I already showed, the stories in Ezra and Nehemiah obviously conflate details, evidenced by the fact that they can’t decide whether it was Jeshua or Ezra who officiated. However, there is no problem at all for an initial contingent to have returned in 538 BCE

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What other rubbish. The Decree was for the Jews specifically and its nature and circumstances are well discussed by the scribe and historian Ezra thus there is no problem at all for an initial contingent to have returned in 537 BCE as fully explained in WT publications.

All of this has been thoroughly discussed on this forum but Jeffro has been misled by COJ's masterful deception and thus robbed of thinking ability.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

A standard retort from JW apologists about the Jews returning from Babylon to Judea in 'only' 6 months after Cyrus' decree is that it 'wouldn't allow time for preparations'. This retort never includes any kind of breakdown of just how long it would take to prepare, nor does it account for the fact that the size of the group allowed for division of labour for the preparations. Instead, it is simply a fallacious argument from incredulity.

Exact preparation times can only be speculated, but tasks could be divided among teams for responsibilities such as leadership, logistics, supplies, route planning etc, which would greatly reduce the time required for overall preparations. So the claim that it would be 'impossible' is entirely unfounded, particularly for people who were highly motivated to make the trip. And some of the many Jews who remained in Babylon might also have helped with the preparations.

As far as the journey itself goes, covering just 25km per day (allowing for a comfortable 5km per hour with several rest periods) and allowing 3 rest days per week, the complete journey could be done in about 16 weeks (112 days), if taking the long route of about 1,600km as proposed by the Watch Tower Society rather than the more direct route of about 800km.

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Nice to see that some level of journey preparation was necessary and that some consideration of the travel itself is now considered but you expect others to suspend their credibility and except that all such occurred within a few months in support of the ridiculous and impossible date of 538 BCE. If you are so confident about 538 BCE for the Return then why not present a breakdown of events with precise date beginning from the time of Cyrus' Decree?

Prof. Andrew Steinmann in his From Abraham To Paul A Biblical Chronology proposes that the preparations and journey would have taken five years thus the Jews became resettled and built the altar in 533 BCE. (201, Concordia Publishing House, ST. Louis, pp.190-191).

Further, Steimmann in his article 'A Chronological Note: The Return Of The Exiles Under Sheshbazzar And Zerubbabel (Ezra 1-2) in JETS, Sept, 2008, pp.513-522 states "Since no date is given in Ezra for Zerubbab's mission to Jerusalem, the date is usually given as 537 BC by those who accept Ezra's chronological statement as accurate but this date is usually offered with some reservation".A footnote '3' is affixed and it refers to the EBC commentary Ezra-Nehemiah, 1988 by Edwin Yamauchi "To express his uncertainty Yamauchi gives the date '537?'

Thus, as you frequently refer to our Insight publication then you consider our explanation as to the historical and minor chronological reasons why 537 BCE is the only possible date for the Return.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

Basic arithmetic is beyond ‘scholar’s’ abilities.

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Nothing to do with arithmetic.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

A Tabulation of fuzziness regarding the beginning of the 70 years:

612 BCE - Fall of Nineveh=End of Assyrian Power

609 BCE - End of Assyrian Power according to some scholars

605 BCE - Nebs acc year.

Which one was it? COJ settled on 609 BCE but recognized the viability of 605 BCE. Too fuzzy wuzzy!

scholar JW