scholar

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Posts by scholar

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  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

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  scholar

  Jeffro

  I'm sure you'll be able to quote the verse that indicates 70 years of exile then. 🙄😂

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  Sure. Jer.25: 8-11; 29:4-10

  Your turn, show the verse that indicates 70 years of Babylon's domination then.

  scholar JW
  
  
  
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

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  scholar

  Jeffro

  Wrong from the first sentence. 🤦‍♂️ The Bible never mentions a 70 year exile. All the nations were to serve Babylon during Babylon’s 70 years (Jeremiah 25:11). Nations could serve Babylon in their own land, and only faced exile if they refused (Jeremiah 27:8-11). When Babylon’s 70 years ended, it would be called to account, which happened in 539 BCE when it was conquered by Persia (Jeremiah 25:12; Daniel 5:26-31; 2 Chronicles 36:20). After Babylon’s 70 years ended, attention would then be given to the Jews’ return (Jeremiah 29:10; 2 Chronicles 36:21). But it is true that Assyria’s final king was defeated in 609BCE, which nicely harmonises with the beginning of Babylon’s 70 years of dominance.

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  Nonsense. The Bible clearly shows that the 70 years was a period of Exile when the Jews were deported to Babylon leaving behind a desolated homeland in accordance with Jeremiah's prophecy. During this period Judah along with other nations was made to serve Babylon just as Jeremiah foretold. At the end of the 70 years of its fulfilment marked by the Return of the Jews in 537 BCE, judgement against Babylon, its king, city and land began to be fulfilled again fulfilling Jeremiah's prophecy against the nations.

  Some scholars date the 70 years from 609 BCE believed to be the Fall of Assyria but this conjecture along with the claim that it was 605 BCE but both dates are wrong as the Land Of Judah at that time had not been invaded by Babylon a requisite for a beginning of the 70 years and Judah had not yet been desolated.

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  In addition to the Bible, VAT4956 provides astronomical confirmation that 587BCE (not 586BCE) is the correct year. See also 586 or 587?

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  Again nonsense for Rolf Furuli has demonstrated that VAT 4956 has been dated incorrectly and can now be used as evidence in support of 607 BCE.

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  WT scholars have over many decades produced scholarly research which proves 607 BCE as the only possible date for the Fall of Jerusalem as opposed to the uncertain dates of either 586 or 587 BCE which both fail to accommodate the historical fact of the Jewish/Babylonian Exile.

  scholar JW
  
  
  
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

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• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  he usual drivel devoid of reality. Just go away. You’ve been trounced enough for now.

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  Ditto!

  scholar JW
  
  
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

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• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  Ezra used Nisan-based accession dating. You claim to understand this subject matter but you need every little thing explained to you.

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  Prove it. We cannot be dogmatic about whether Ezra used the Nisan or Tishri accession based calendar as this is a matter of controversy within scholarship.

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  Irrespective, Iyyar of 536BCE wasn’t part of Cyrus’ second year regardless of which of the dating systems is chosen, and therefore is not the year the temp foundations were laid. Despite your plaintive claims and desperate need for your religious superstitions, it isn’t a problem at all for a contingency of Jews to have returned to Jerusalem in 538BCE. (Though it is amusing that ‘all things are possible with God’ unless it’s inconvenient for JW dogma.

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  WT scholars in harmony with Ezra 3:8 have thoughtfully determined that the temple foundation was laid in the second month 536 BCE.

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  In summary, Babylon’s 70 years began when the last Assyrian king was defeated in 609BCE and ended when Babylon’s king was ‘called to account’ in 539 BCE. The Jewish exile began in early 597BCE, and Jerusalem’s desolation began in 587BCE (Ezekiel 40:1). After Babylon’s 70 years ended in 539BCE, attention was then given to the Jews’ return in 538BCE, after the land had rested 49 years (compare Leviticus 25:8). Temple reconstruction then began in Cyrus’ 2nd regnal year, 537 BCE

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  Jeffro will not be happy!!

  scholar JW
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

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  scholar

  Jeffro

  scholar' desperately needs it to be 'impossible' for a contingent of Jews to have prepared for a journey from Babylon to Judea in just a couple of months. Of course, it is entirely possible that teams of people could have made the necessary preparations, and many sources agree that 538 BCE is the correct year. But 'scholar' needs it to be impossible even though it is supposedly possible for God to accomplish anything.

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  The said scholar has no need of desperation for the biblical evidence clearly indicates the impossibility for the contingent of Jews to have returned home in 538 BCE. But if Jeffro's imagination stretches that far then that is a matter for him. The historical account not only discusses the journey's preparations but there is also the time of the actual Decree and its proclamation throughout the Empire is an additional factor that disproves 538 BCE as a candidate for the Return.

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  • So, even though it is actually practically possible for the Jews to have organised a journey from Babylon to Jerusalem in a few months, in view of JW superstitions, it is especially preposterous that 'scholar' believes it is 'impossible'.

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    Such a comment ignores all of the other factors that form part of the history of the Return as described by Ezra and the fact that precise chronological information is lacking, so based on what we do know and what we can know it would be impossible to accomplish such things within 12 months thus reason and the facts should move rather than imagination or some wild theory.

    scholar JW

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• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

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• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  Look how doggedly the apologist tries to defend his ‘fuzzy’ assignment of 537BCE!

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  Nothing fuzzy about 537 BCE as it conforms to the regnal data of Cyrus' reign with his issuing the Decree in his 1st year followed by the history of the publishing of the Decree and the extensive journey preparations following with a length of the journey thus arriving back home and resettled by the 7 month in either Cyrus' 1st or 2nd year dependent on the calendar used by Ezra and the precise time when Cyrus uttered the Decree.in his 1st year.

  When you clear up the fuzziness of the beginning of the 70 years as to whether it occurred in 612, 609 or 605 BCE according to your advocacy of secular chronology then you can be credible.

  scholar JW
  
  
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

  1. 
  2. 
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• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  t is particularly amusing that the JW apologist argues that the entirely plausible return of a contingent of Jews in 538 BCE is ‘impossible’ but the same standard isn’t applied elsewhere.

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  Only possible in your imagination for Ezra's detailed history of the event disproves 538 BCE and supports the more reasonable interpretation of 537 BCE for the Return as discussed in your favourite reference book Insight on the Scriptures.

  scholar JW

  
  

  
  
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  You are in big trouble with Pierre 1977!!

  scholar JW
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

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  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Pierre1977

  I didn't like to have seen the start of a doctrinal discussion after a person died. This is all scholar JW's fault! Why did you start it? Don't the Jehovah's Witnesses know about the verse about throwing pearls to pigs? Do you think any Jehovah's Witness will read this here and be assured of his faith or do you seriously expect any non-believes to be convinced. You should have kept your opinion to yourself. But anyway, while we're at it I am going to respond to some points here. Note: I believe in the Bible and the Biblical God. But I don't care about the Jehovah's Witness' issue of 538 vs. 537 B. C. E. here

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  The said scholar began the discussion of COJ's thesis in response to the initial post of slimboyfat and it was felt that the other side of the story with some corrections was necessary.

  scholar JW
  
  
• 
  362

  Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

  he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

  the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  Poor addled ‘scholar’. He imagines that preparation and travel has ‘only now been considered’. He makes the same kind of pathetic jibe every time it is ‘acknowledged’ that ‘there was an exile’ (as distinct from the nonexistent ‘70-year exile’) as if it’s new Informatio

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  The said scholar has pushed and prodded you to concede the necessity of sufficient passage of time for not only the length of the Return journey but also the preparations required and now you whine and squeal because you are forced to make this concession in a vain attempt to support the nonsense date of 538 BCE

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  Desperate to claim 538 BCE is ‘impossible’, he throws 537 BCE under the bus by pointing out that one person suggests 533BCE

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  The fact is that Chronologist Steinmann recognizes what WT scholars have long said that there must be sufficient time of preparation as one of the many historical factors necessary for calculating the date of the Return in 537 BCE.

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  In reality, there was no ‘decree’ just for the Jews, but a general policy on Cyrus’s part of allowing former exiled peopleto be repatriated to quell social unrest. The biblical story is greatly overstated and it is indeed true that many scholars recognise that the full number took a much longer time to return, with several separate groups returning at different times. As I already showed, the stories in Ezra and Nehemiah obviously conflate details, evidenced by the fact that they can’t decide whether it was Jeshua or Ezra who officiated. However, there is no problem at all for an initial contingent to have returned in 538 BCE

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  What other rubbish. The Decree was for the Jews specifically and its nature and circumstances are well discussed by the scribe and historian Ezra thus there is no problem at all for an initial contingent to have returned in 537 BCE as fully explained in WT publications.

  All of this has been thoroughly discussed on this forum but Jeffro has been misled by COJ's masterful deception and thus robbed of thinking ability.

  scholar JW