Posts by scholar

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

It is definitionally impossible for an eclipse on 15 Simanu to have occurred on 15 July in any year during the Neo-Babylonian period.

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Utter nonsense for interpretation is involved with astro data just as a methodology and WTscholars including Furuli's research find differently.

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And what are the names of these ‘WT scholars’? 😂 Funny how the dismal 2011 attempt at defending their nonsense didn’t name the “researchers” who supposedly analysed VAT4956.

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Why is that important? At least the footnote describes the method used and the names of the astro tables and while we are at it what is the source of your data?

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So? You’ve already shown that you couldn’t even understand the placement of the intercalary month in early 587 BCE, so your adjudication means nothing.

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I suspect neither do you for I find it interesting that one observes an intercalary month associated with the PD table for the same year- 588 BCE and similar an intercalary month assigned for Neb's 37th year in VAR 4956. As one famous Australian politician once said: 'Please explain!' On the other hand, please don't for you are no expert.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

Now he’s happy to include the previous evening! 😂🤦‍♂️ But Simanu never begins on June 30 (or any day after 27 June) on the Julian calendar in the Neo-Babylonian period either. And ‘scholar’ was adamant that the previous evening isn’t a valid starting point for PD anyway. 😂 And of course VAT4956 says nothing of the sort because it refers to an eclipse on 15 Simanu (5 July 568BCE), not 1 Simanu for the wrong date in the wrong month in a different year.

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Nope. According to the data in VAT 4956 the eclipse is more correctly assigned to 15 July 588 BC and not to 5 July 568 BCE as the result of the research by WT scholars.

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And unfortunately for ‘scholar’, I’ve already demonstrated that I have interpreted PD correctly where ‘scholar’ dismally failed.

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The said scholar does not trust your interpretation of PD's tabulation!!

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

He can't even properly interpret a table. No wonder he accepts JW doctrines

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Neither can you!

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Wow. No, doofus, Simanu began on 21 June in that year. But you believe it started on 1 July, remember? It’s Nisanu that you incorrectly believe began in May

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Nope, it is June 30/ July 1,588 BC.according to VAT 4956

Go away boofhead.!

scholar jw

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jefffro

I wasn't quoting the table when I correctly referred to the Babylonian custom of reckoning the day from sunset. Anyone with a basic understanding of the subject would realise that my reference to "the evening of 3 April" is the day of "4 April", and that this is why other sources (including The Watchtower) use notation such as "3/4 April" for this purpose.

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That is fine and I applaud your explanation thus you should follow the WT's example and use such similar dating method.

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t's things like this that show 'scholar' to be thoroughly inept or brutally dishonest. 🙄

'scholar', maybe read this slowly so you understand... When referring to years BC, smaller numbers are more recent than larger numbers. The intercalary month in early 587BCE only more strongly confirms that there was no intercalary month before Nisanu of 588BCE.🤦‍♂️

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That is your opinion I simply notice that the intercalary month is featured on the same line as the year 588 BCE and its insertion thereof in my mind raises a legitimate question regarding the beginning of the following year of 588 BC.

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But here's another hint for you... the year that normal people call 588BCE is actually called 608BCE in JW chronology, so you shouldn't be looking for an intercalary month there anyway. The year that JWs call '588BCE' is what normal people call 568BCE, and it does have an intercalary month before Nisanu. That intercalary month is the reason why Nisanu of 568BCE began on 23 April instead of 25 March. (I have considered the possiblity that the dimwitted Watchtower writers looked at the PD table for 568BCE, saw "5/23" for the start of Aru for that year, and took it as "2/3 May" instead of "23 May". In any case, the JW reckoning is quite impossible

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Frankly, you are no expert in these matters and neither is the said scholar. The issue at hand is the proper identification of the lunar eclipse in VAT 4956 for Simanu 15 as to whether it is July 15, 588 BC or July 5, 568 BC and the evidence via the WT article and its footnote 17 convinces the said scholar that 588 BC fits the bill for Neb's 37 th year. The intercalary month in VAT 4956 must have some significance and WT scholars have accounted for it by fixing that year beginning in early May.

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The date 608 BCE is simply your contrivance and has no relevance in WT Chronology in respect of properly dating Neb's reign but if you choose to use that date then go for it.

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Yes, VAT 4956 here refers to an eclipse in Simanu, which always begins in May or June on the Julian calendar in the Neo-Babylonian period.

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At last we agree on something.

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Well, strictly speaking, 1 Simanu was 14 days earlier. But I wouldn't expect you to start being accurate now..

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The 'expert' speaks but who cares.

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You've already committed the fallacy of assuming your conclusion, but let's see where this goes... 🤣 Since Simanu always begins in May or June, July 15 can never be 15 Simanu, so an eclipse on July 15 in any year of the Neo-Babylonian period cannot be the eclipse on 15 Simanu. And you're referring to a year from PD's tables that would actually be called 608BCE in JW chronology.

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We are dealing with the data in VAT 4956 and not the data of P & D and that data demonstrates that regarding Neb's 37 th year that Simanu began in May.

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Which is, of course, impossible.

But when we look at the correct year, 568BCE, we see there was indeed an intercalary month before Nisanu as confirmed by PD & VAT4956, and the eclipse on 15 Simanu is readily identified as the one that occurred on 5 July 568BCE.

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No for WT scholars have come to a different conclusion with an explanation of the facts.

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PD already includes all the intercalary months, including Adar II starting on 5 March 568BCE. There was no need to add an extra month immediately before Nisanu of 588BCE, and the PD tables show that Adar II never begins in April (hence the Watch Tower Society's 'requirement' for one here is special pleading).

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The WT is not discussing the tabulation in P&D but the data in VAT 4956 and if special pleading is required then so be it.

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Any honest person with a decent understanding of the subject would immediately recognise that you have the wrong year if you're trying to make Nisanu start in May. Hence, you are again shown to be inept, dishonest, or both.

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Other people can read the WT article and come to their conclusions on the matter and if there is a question relative to the points raised in the article then such ones can write directly to WT for an answer and if you have a criticism then you too can write a letter.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

This is typical of the nonsense the apologist tries. In one comment, I correctly stated that a Babylonian calendar day started on the evening of April 3, which is the day of April 4. There was no inconsistency at all, but the dishonest ‘scholar’ tries to claim something was acknowledged ‘at last’.

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The simpler fact is if you are going to refer to the tables then quote the table correctly and PD lists for the beginning of Nisan is April 4 and not April 3 for the year 588 BC.

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Note that there was actually an intercalary month before Nisan of 587BCE, which is of no help to the lying apologist.

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The fact is that PD shows for the year 588 BC that there is an intercalary month or extra month was added to the preceding year 0f 587 BC which means that the New Year began not in April but May 588 BC.

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Simanu never starts in July. The false association of an eclipse on 15 Simanu (5 July 568BCE) with one on 15 July 588BCE is a Watch Tower Society contrivance, which only further demonstrates their dishonesty and yours. (Note that ‘scholar’ has again claimed here that the 15th day of Simanu was July 1, but the Watch Tower footnote actually asserts that 15 Simanu was 15 July and that Simanu began July 1.)

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VAT 4956 shows differently and is not a contrivance as the eclipse dated July 15 588 matches well with the eclipse mentioned in VAT 4956 -3 Simanu which is further supported by the tablet's reference to an additional month which means that the New Year did not start until May2/3 which is is well explained in the footnote 17.

VAT 4956 - Lunar eclipse on 15 Simanu (Babylonian 3rd month) -

Therefore Simanu began 15 days earlier -

There was a lunar eclipse July 15 588 BC Julian calendar

Thus, the first day of Simanu would be June 30/.1 July 588 BC Julian calendar

Therefore, Nisanu would have begun two months earlier on May2/3 588 BC

Normally, according to P&D the new year would have begun on 4 Nisanu-3/ 4 April 588 BC - Julian calendar

VAT 4956 states that an extra month was added after the 12th month Addaru of the preceding year which then means that the new year of 588 BCE did not start until May 2/3.

Thus, the date of this lunar eclipse in 588 BC well fits the data on the tablet, VAT 4956

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

MeanMrMustard

Ok. Those scriptures would be Jer.25: 8-11; 29:4-10.
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Agreed for such texts prove that the 70 years was not only a period of domination by Babylon as servitude but also a period of Exile and the desolation of the Land of Judah.
scholart JW
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362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

'scholar' will continue to deny reality. But for honest readers, the following extract from Parker & Dubberstein confirms, as I previously stated, that the first day of Nisan 588BCE (i.e. Nebuchadnezzar's 17 year) was 4 April and the first day of Nisan 568BCE (i.e. Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year) was 23 April. Babylonian Chronology - 626B.C.-A.D. 75, Parker & Dubberstein, page 28:

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At last, Jeffro now states more correctly that NIsan for 588 BCE begins on April 4 as shown in P&D's table for this is reality and does not show April 3. because PD begins from midnight and not the evening.

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The said scholar has never said that PD shows Nisan for 588 BCE began in May and it is recognized according to these tables that there is not an example of Nisan beginning in May. However, PD show that in 588 BCE there was an intercalary month Addaru II preceding Nisan 588 which if 588 BCE is the assigned year because VAT 4956 mentions an eclipse, of the third month Simanu on the 15th day- June 30/July 1 thus according to VAT 4956 and that there was also an intercalary month as "8th of month XII confirms the fact that the New Year began not in Nisan but on May 2/3 thus establishing 588 BCE for Neb's 37 th year. The simple fact is that PD does not show that lunar eclipse described in VAT 4956- Simanu 15- July 15, 588 BCE

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

‘scholar’ knows very well that none of the sources support the Watch Tower claim that Nisan began in May in 588BCE. It is purely Watch Tower conjecture based on their incorrect assertion that Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year ‘must’ be 588BCE. The correct year is 568BCE, with which all the secular sources agree.

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You are not very smart, are you? Vat 4956 simply gives a certain lunar eclipse along with other lunar and planetary data. The tablet indicates that a certain eclipse namely 15th Simanu which can fit the eclipse dated July 1 588 BCE. The Babylonian month Simau is the third month thus the first month Nisan must have begun two months earlier in May, if you have a May problem then take it up with the scribes who recorded Vat 4956 There are other lunar and planetary data that fit 588 BCE better than 586 BCE so 588 BCE is now properly considered for Neb's 37th year with a 20-year difference between 586 and 588 BCE. Thus 607 BCE is firmly established based on historical, biblical and astronomical evidence.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

The facts are these:

VAT 4956 shows that Neb's 37th year showed an eclipse - the 15th of the third Babylonian month Simanu which corresponds to July 15 588 BC as shown in the tables published by Huber and De Meis which means that the beginning of that month would be June 30/July 1, 588 BCE. This means that the year beginning with the first month Nisanu or Nisan would have begun two months earlier on 2/3 May 588 BCE which would make such a year a most suitable date for Neb's 37th year rather than 586 BCE.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

While we are at it and see you are such an expert then no doubt you have to hand a copy of page 186 of the reference book referred to in footnote 17 in that WT article and please explain why the reasoning in that footnote and its related paragraph in the Wt article on page 25 is in error.

scholar JW