Posts by scholar

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

587/596 is not really debatable, the one-year discrepancy comes about based on whether the accession or regnal year is being used to count from. Regardless, as to Bible prophecy and JW's 607 is only important because of their 1914 teaching. That being the case, if all that is said in connection with the 1914 teaching is false then 607 should not matter to JW's--

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The said scholar disagrees. The debate concerning 586 or 587 BCE is very important especially when WT critics are critical of 607 BCE as an inaccurate date for the Fall of Jerusalem. Chronology if possible demands precision and JW's have for many decades presented to the scholarly community a precise date-607 BCE.

scholar JW

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

scholar

Jorden

I just wanted to ask if you were both current active JW's that believe the JW's beliefs?

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Yes

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Do y'all believe the GB are the F&DS?

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The FDS is a parabolic statement as a part of an eschatological context that has application to all of Jesus' disciples both as a collective - community and as individuals which would include the leadership namely the GB.

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The 607/ 587 BC or more accurately the 607/587/586 BC debate is very important for it involves Bible Chronology and its relationship to Eschatology and Prophecy. The evidence from both biblical and secular sources such as Jewish history, NB history and chronology including its astronomical records proves that 607 BE is the date for the Fall of Jerusalem during the reigns of the Judean monarch, King Zedekiah and the Babylonian King, Nebuchadnezzar.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

The sound of desperation as ‘scholar’s’ cognitive dissonance gnaws at him. Newton’s claims about Ptolemy’s supposed unreliability, including when the new year started, aren’t widely accepted. And your cherry picked source is made redundant by Parker and Dubberstein’s tables anyway.

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The said scholar is quite relaxed and Newton's observation does make the possibility of a New Year beginning in May as shown by means of the lunar eclipse in VAT 4956. PD does not discuss VAT 4956 but Newton does use PD as part of his thesis. The solstice was not observed but calculated thus rendering such an event redundant.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

This is obviously wrong, because the Babylonian calendar had no mechanism or purpose for years of only 11 months (or 10 if starting from June).

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You are talking nonsense so you are well advised to read the reference that the said scholar has given to you as Newton's discussion was on the Babylonian Calendar.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

I have sent an email to Rolf Furuli concerning the implication of the summer solstice mentioned in VAT 4956. In the meantime my research has shown that such solstices were not observed but calculated, the opinion of a number of scholars and astronomers as noted by Furuli for the solstice mentioned in VAT 4956'

Also, Ihe said scholar came across an interesting comment regarding the Babylonian Calendar: "Since the need for the extra month was probably determined by observation made by officials who had political interests and political power, we may be sure that the assignment of the extra month was somewhat erratic. It has been estimated that the first day of the year might have come any time from the middle of March to the middle of June in middle Babylonian times". The Crimes Of Claudius Ptolemy, Robert R. Newton, 1977, p.396.

Very interesting!!

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

The solstice on 9 Simanu in Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year corresponds to 29 June 568 BCE, exactly as expected and completely correct. Well that was easy. Quite a conundrum for the JW version though

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At this stage, this is only your own personal opinion for WT critics have no mention of this which perhaps is quite telling as to whether this observation has any significance. The said scholar will solve this matter in due course as this is what scholar does.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

If your favourite apostate says the solstice occurred on 9 July, he’s simply wrong. And if he says VAT 4956 must be an elaborate fake, he’s veering into conspiritard territory, and also invalidating his own efforts to make it appear consistent with 588 BCE.

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Let us not be presumptuous on this matter for the said scholar will contact expert Furuli but scholar will also make his own inquiries and research into this matter but is somewhat bemused that this matter has escaped the attention of critics such as COJ.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

It’s not merely ‘my position’. 🙄 And it’s 15 Simanu, not 3, which can literally never be 15 July in any year of the neo-Babylonian period, for the same reasons that Nisan can never begin in May and the solstice can never be in July. So much for “WT scholars”. The only option for the JW position, despite their 2011 claim that researchers found it consistent with 588BCE, is to claim VAT 4956 ‘must be all wrong after all’. 🤦‍♂️

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The corrected typo for the tablet indicates that it is the 15th Simanu, the 3rd month for that lunar eclipse.which means it fell on the 15 JULY 588 BC- Julian calendar. Therefore, this means that 1 Simanu must have begun 30 July, 588 BC and the new year beginning with the first month Nisanu is pushed forward to May 2/3 588 BC. The matter of the solstice mentioned in 9 Simanu is yet to be resolved which is a question not only for WT scholars but also for its critics. So, let us hear from the critics as to why this matter has not been discussed.

scholar JW

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362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

What we actually have is an eclipse on 5 July 568 BCE but that is asserted by JWs to have occurred on 15 July 588 BCE (which is impossible because Simanu never starts in July), and a summer solstice 6 days earlier which necessarily occurred within a day of 29 June regardless of the chosen year anywhere during the neo-Babylonian period, once again showing the JW interpretation to be impossible. All of the events, as well as the required intercalary month preceding Nisan, perfectly fit 568 BCE.

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A nice summary of your position but WT scholars have shown that the lunar eclipse described in VAT 4956, 3 Simanu according to the Julian calendar would be 15 July 588 BC and that the New Year would have begun 2/3 May. The solstice 9th Simanu mentioned in the tablet is dated six days earlier thus would be 9 July 588 BC. No doubt much debate about this new research with continuing controversy but WT scholars are quite relaxed and comfortable about such controversies and so is the said scholar.

scholar JW

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

scholar

Jeffro

Thank you and now the said scholar can pursue the issue with the expert, Dr. Rolf Furuli

scholar JW