Posts by scholar

111

The Ugly Truth about Jesus 2nd Presence

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as jws we learned the utmost central watchtower doctrine that jesus returned "invisibly" in 1914 (well it was 1874, but then j. f. rutherford decided jesus really, really, really returned at a later date ... this is also known to jws as "jesus second presence" (greek: parousia = english: presence):.

ref.

related new thread at: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/70098/1.ashx .

scholar

Alan F

You have parsed the verb melle with the infinitives in Mark 13:4 and Luke 21: 7 correctly as sourced from Friberg's Analytical Greek New Testament. However, you make no comment on the grammar that is involved with these terms or how they should be translated. All you have done is quoted from the opinions of Bauer and the authors of the Translator Handbooks Luke & Mark along with your preferred translations. Why did you not try to determine whether in fact the NWT renderings in the interlinear and translation were correct or incorrect?

In fact, if you had bothered to consult the grammar you would have found that the NWT is absolutely correct as the following reference works prove:

Regarding the verb with the infinitive in Mark13:4 ''mellle pres. subj. mello to be about to. Used w. infinitive the future. sunteleisthai pres.pass. inf. sunteleo to complete, to bring to an end".Linguistic Key To The Greek New Testament by Fritz Reinecker, 1982 p.124. In the same reference work on page 203 for Luke 21:7 it says"mello to be about to. Used w. infinitive to ecpress fut.(s.MKG,307)".

So, if we consult MKG page 307 (The Morphology of Koine Greek:As used in the Apocalypse of St. John by G. Mussies, 1971 Supplement To Novum Testamentum) it says the following under Section11.6.4 : (b) Durative Future Indicative:

mello plus durative infinitive

These words groups have a futural as well as a durative value...

(d) Future Subjunctive: mello plus (durative) infinitive eg. Luke 21:7 melle ginesthai.

Similarly, if you consult the references on mello with the pres. inf in A Grammar Of The Greek Mew Testament- In The Light Of Historical Research by A T Robertson, 1934 on page 869-70: (d) The Futuristic Present."'The other use of the futuristic present is the dramatic and prophetic...It is not merely prophecy, but certainty of expectation is involved...This use of mello and inf. is a sort of half-way station between the futuristic present and the punctiliar future. The futuristic present startles and arrests attention. It affirms and not merely predicts. It gives a sense of certainty.

You may wish to check the other references on this subject by means of the Index to Greek Words on page 1272.

In short, the NWT renderings are absolutely correct and it is possibly the only translation that recognizes this subtle nuance in Koine Greek. The other references you have quoted are simply too superficial and do recognize the significance of parousia meaning presence im Matthew 24:3 compared with the similar question in Mark 13:4 and luke 21:7.

QED

scholar

Hons Research Scholar

111

The Ugly Truth about Jesus 2nd Presence

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as jws we learned the utmost central watchtower doctrine that jesus returned "invisibly" in 1914 (well it was 1874, but then j. f. rutherford decided jesus really, really, really returned at a later date ... this is also known to jws as "jesus second presence" (greek: parousia = english: presence):.

ref.

related new thread at: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/70098/1.ashx .

scholar

toreador

The reference work is the Dictionary Of The Later New Testament & Its Developments by Editors: Ralph P Martin and Peter H Davis. Volume 3 - A Compendium Of Contemporary Biblical Scholarship. There are four published volumes on the NT and a projected 3 volumes for the OT with the first volume on the Pentateuch aleady published.

scholar

Hons Research Scholar - Religious & Philosophical Studies, Deakin.

111

The Ugly Truth about Jesus 2nd Presence

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as jws we learned the utmost central watchtower doctrine that jesus returned "invisibly" in 1914 (well it was 1874, but then j. f. rutherford decided jesus really, really, really returned at a later date ... this is also known to jws as "jesus second presence" (greek: parousia = english: presence):.

ref.

related new thread at: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/70098/1.ashx .

scholar

Alan F

The reference work in question is theExegetical Dictionary Of The New Testament edited by Horst Balz and Gerhard Schneider. At last you admit that destined to occur is one of the meanings listed by Bauer but under that heading Bauer list his own interpretation of the Markan and Lukan texts in the following subheading. However, the careful rendering by the NWT of the verb followed by the infinitive is grammatically correct as any competent Greek scholar will tell you. I challenge you to disprove this rendering. So far you have cowardly ignord my request to parse that verb and the infinitive because you well know that the NWT rendering is accurate and correct. The rendering in the AV agrees nicely with the NWT in my view in NOT showing immediacy.

Thus far you have chosen to ignore my request to provide your translation of the 24 NT passages wherein parousia occurs despite the fact that you have long championed the eroneous view that parousia means coming, it means presence and no amount of argy bargy is going to change this basic fact of Greek lexicography.

111

The Ugly Truth about Jesus 2nd Presence

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as jws we learned the utmost central watchtower doctrine that jesus returned "invisibly" in 1914 (well it was 1874, but then j. f. rutherford decided jesus really, really, really returned at a later date ... this is also known to jws as "jesus second presence" (greek: parousia = english: presence):.

ref.

related new thread at: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/70098/1.ashx .

scholar

Alan F

The reference work that I referred to is the Exegetical Dictionary Of The New Testament edited by Horst Balz and Gerhard Schneider. At last you admit that according to Bauer that destined to occur is one of several meanings for mello and Bauer under the nest subheading gives his personal view as to how this verb followed by the infinitive is translated. However, you have not been prepared to offer a grammatical parsing of these terms because you know that such an attempt would show the superiority of the rendition in the NWT. I dare you to show that the NWT is inaacurate in the transaltion of this Markan and Lukan passage. The rendering in the AV transalation does NOT show immediacy as you claim but is more sympathetic to the rendering in the NWT.

So far you have not posted your translation of the 24 NT instances of parousia and untilyou do so your credibility is nil and please have the courage and intellectual integrity to parse the infinitive and the preceding verb. I dare you to do this.

scholar

111

The Ugly Truth about Jesus 2nd Presence

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as jws we learned the utmost central watchtower doctrine that jesus returned "invisibly" in 1914 (well it was 1874, but then j. f. rutherford decided jesus really, really, really returned at a later date ... this is also known to jws as "jesus second presence" (greek: parousia = english: presence):.

ref.

related new thread at: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/70098/1.ashx .

scholar

ozziepost

The coming of our LORD is yet still future and simply marks his parousia or presence which began in 1914 inicated by reliable Bible chronology and the fulfillment of the Sign that the Master gave to his disciples on Mount Olives. It is important to clearly understand that parousia means presence and that is why true Christians believe in his parousia as a reality and not something that causes confusion. Such Christians are not troubled by the theological dilemma called the Delay of the Parousia which is based on the false premise that our Lord and Savior only comes without any parousia. Perhaps you should consult DLOTLNT,1997, Vol.3.,pp.856-75 at Moore Theological College Library.

scholar

111

The Ugly Truth about Jesus 2nd Presence

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as jws we learned the utmost central watchtower doctrine that jesus returned "invisibly" in 1914 (well it was 1874, but then j. f. rutherford decided jesus really, really, really returned at a later date ... this is also known to jws as "jesus second presence" (greek: parousia = english: presence):.

ref.

related new thread at: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/70098/1.ashx .

scholar

Alan F

Why do you not post page 501 of Bauer's lexicon so that others may see the matter for themselves. You ignore the fact that Bauer has listed be destined as a legitimate meaning of mello and you cannot discern the nuance of this Greek passage. The fact of the matter is that no Greek scholar would say that the rendering of the NWT in these two texts is inaccurate. Further, the AV version translates Mark 13:4 as "'when all these things are fulfilled"" and Luke 21:7 as "'when these things shall come to pass"' which are in agreement with the NWT showing no immediacy.

I challenge you to disprove the NWT renderings by Greek grammar and to present your translation of parousia in the 24 times it occurs in the NT.

scholar

111

The Ugly Truth about Jesus 2nd Presence

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as jws we learned the utmost central watchtower doctrine that jesus returned "invisibly" in 1914 (well it was 1874, but then j. f. rutherford decided jesus really, really, really returned at a later date ... this is also known to jws as "jesus second presence" (greek: parousia = english: presence):.

ref.

related new thread at: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/70098/1.ashx .

scholar

Alan F

My reference to Bauer's lexicon is correct because I stated that melle means be destined, inevitable along with other meanings which are referred under the same heading B or the second letter in the Greek alphabet. Bauer's translation when all these things are (or begin) to be accompished is in agreement with the NWT rendering are destined to occur and are destined to come to a completion.In such examples there is no hint of immediacy as shown by popular and inaccurate translations which have failed to show the nuance of meaning indicated with this verb followed by the infinitive. Again the NWT stands supreme as it is in accordance with Greek Grammar.

Also, you may find it rewarding to consult EDOTNT,1991, Vol.2, p.403 which indicates that mello means intend, be about to, will, be destined to, consider, hesitate,delay. Further, on page 404 it highlights the fact that this verb in question is used in a eschatological context or to the event of the end Mark13:4 (cf. Luke 21:7).

scholar

111

The Ugly Truth about Jesus 2nd Presence

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as jws we learned the utmost central watchtower doctrine that jesus returned "invisibly" in 1914 (well it was 1874, but then j. f. rutherford decided jesus really, really, really returned at a later date ... this is also known to jws as "jesus second presence" (greek: parousia = english: presence):.

ref.

related new thread at: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/70098/1.ashx .

scholar

Leolaia

I have not misrepresented Alan 's claims concerning the meaning of parousia for he knows only too well that the word means presence but he prefers secondary meanings such as coming or arrival. He has a history of posting such an inaccuracy as he seeks to discredit any notion of an invisble presence.His motive in presenting lengthy quotes is to merely hide his agenda.

Alan F

Your sloppy exegesis of Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7 is apparent from your failure to analyze the essentials of these two verses in your attempted criticism of the NWT. The translations that you selected show immediacy but that differs from the careful rendering in the NWT which refer to a determined event to be fulfilled. The key expression is the modifying verb melle followed by the infinitive in both verses. The reference works show that melle means be destined, inevitable along with other meanings- Bauer,1979,p.500-1. Also, in NIDNTT, Vol1, p.326 it says:

2. mello means must, to have to, to be certain to, in the context of events which happen according to the will and decree of God and which are thus necessary, certain and inevitable,,,It occurs in the context of Gods action in grace and judgement (Mark 13:4...). A careful parsing of the verb and the infinitive will prove that the translations -destined to occur and destined to come to a conclusion are entirely accurate and do not demonstrate the immediate action that you propose. I await with great interest your translation of the 24 NT examples of parousia if you dare.

scholar

111

The Ugly Truth about Jesus 2nd Presence

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as jws we learned the utmost central watchtower doctrine that jesus returned "invisibly" in 1914 (well it was 1874, but then j. f. rutherford decided jesus really, really, really returned at a later date ... this is also known to jws as "jesus second presence" (greek: parousia = english: presence):.

ref.

related new thread at: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/70098/1.ashx .

scholar

Amazing 1914

I have not bothered to respond to the matter of invisibility because it is essential that we understand that the word parousia means prescence or active prescence as defined in lexicography. Unfortunately. posers such as Alan F and his ilk want to redefine this term solely with coming or arrival which is an intellectual fraud.

It is essential that you understand the theological signifcance of parousia before dismissing views of invisibility. The Wathtower publications have provided scriptural reasons for this understanding and these are presented in the Insight Volume 2 under the subject presence. In addition you could read pertinent articles on this subject in TDNT and NIDONTT. You will see in the appended bibliographies to such articles that is a plethora of articles and books in the academic field which deal with this subject.

scholar

111

The Ugly Truth about Jesus 2nd Presence

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

as jws we learned the utmost central watchtower doctrine that jesus returned "invisibly" in 1914 (well it was 1874, but then j. f. rutherford decided jesus really, really, really returned at a later date ... this is also known to jws as "jesus second presence" (greek: parousia = english: presence):.

ref.

related new thread at: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/70098/1.ashx .

scholar

johnny cip

I fail to see that I have been exposed as a fraud on Channel C as you claim or perhaps you only read what you want to believe. I intend to continue to post on that forum whenever it is appropriate. In fact I have not been demolished as you claim for I have been posting on this forum for quite some time and you can check the history of my postings on this forum. Also, my academic qualifications are authentic and I welcome the opportunity to converse by phone.

scholar