Posts by scholar

421

70 years = 607?

by allelsefails in

70 years of captivity?.

i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.

that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.

The evidence for 607 BCE is simply fact that 539 BCE fell in 539 BCE as attested by scholarship followed by the establishment of 537 BCE as the date for the Jewish Exiles under Cyrus as confirmed by Ezra and other archaeological evidence for the Decree of Cyrus in his first year. This Return ended the prophesied 70 year period of Exile-Desolation-Servitude in 607 BCE with the Destruction of Jerusalem in the 11th year of Zedekiak and the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzer. The facts concerning the 70 years are described by Ezra, Daniel, Jeremiah and Zechariah are attested by the testimony of Josephus. This is just a simple overview of the subject.

As you acknowledge scholars including the 'celebrated' WT scholars need to rely on Pivotal Dates or Absolute in order to do chronology but the selection of such dates varies from scholar to scholar. Our scholars have selected 539 BCE as the best choicemuch to the chagrin of apostates. The use of 539 BCE is based on a selected methodology which is the basis of any scheme of chronology but provides surety for the determination of 607 BCE.

scholar JW

421

70 years = 607?

by allelsefails in

70 years of captivity?.

i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.

that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.

scholar

Mary

Post 10694

Methinks Mary is not happy with scholar!

Proof of the fact that Daniel 4 has a major fulfillment is the very theme of the chapter which introduces the chapter and is part of Neb's confession and that is God's Kingdom. The link between Luke 21:24 are two periods of time: the trampling of Jerusalem and the Gentile Times. Further, there is use of the word 'times' featured in both Luke and Daniel and finally there is the fact the Jerusalem in typified in Luke and was typfied by the 'tree' as the typical Kingdom of God on earth, the kingdom of Judah with its Davidic Monarchy. So we have at least 3 sound reasons to prove the matter.

I have refuted Leolaia's hypothesis or at least I am not persuaded by it and no doubt we will continue to contend the matter.

Scholar is a great believer in facts and evidence and has been faithful in this matter over the last eight years and will continue to pursue truth in all its glory.

scholar JW

54

The Governing Body's REAL critical date

by Doug Mason in

russell taught that 1914 ce would bring in an unprecedented era of peace.

in 1930, rutherford moved russells date of the parousia from 1874 to 1914. .

thus until 1930 not one follower had recognised the currently ascribed significance in heaven to the time that corresponds to 1914 on our earth.

scholar

AllTimeJeff

Post 1545

Your studies at Gilead although meritorious does not make you an expert in eschatology, nor does it make you an expert in WT History and Theology. F W Franz was a brilliant scholar and theologian and he made some mistakes such as 1975 but regarding the staus of earlier dates these were the povenance of the 'celebrated' WT scholars. As all of these fellows were human thus mistakes are the nature of things and it is by making mistakes that we learn and are disciplined by God. It is those mistakes whether in Chronology and Theology that serve as 'stepping stones' in the pursuit of truth. It is those 'mistakes' that are part and parcel of our Christian heritage and serve as a witness that Jehovah has raised up a body of people to carry out His will during these 'End -Times'. Did you learn this at Gilead?

The evidence for 607 BCE for the Fall of Jeruselem is overwhelming from not only a biblical viewpoint but also from a secular/historical point of view. Apostates have done much to discredit our sacred chronology but their so-called 'scholarly 'efforts has failed miserably.

The 1260 days and 1919 are proven true biblically by means of the book of Revelation and the Pauline Epistles and conform with the facts of modern history during that early period of the 20th century. The Governing Body is nothing more than a administrative authority for they are subject to the FDS who alone are given the responsibility of providing spirtual food, the GB is simply an agency for the FDS.

scholar JW

421

70 years = 607?

by allelsefails in

70 years of captivity?.

i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.

that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.

scholar

AnnOMaly

Post 957

Your two tabulations highlight the problems involved with chronology so that is why is far wiser to pay attention to the research made by the 'celebrated' WT scholars who have written much on this subject harmonizing all of the secular, biblical and historical data.

scholar JW

421

70 years = 607?

by allelsefails in

70 years of captivity?.

i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.

that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.

scholar

AnnOMaly

Post 958

Your point about ignoring advances in Bible scholarship with some discoveries in the 1870's is rather trite. Perhaps it was felt that such discoveries did not have much impact on the interpretation of Bible History and Bible Prophecy to have any significance. Bible chronology over that period was still progressing right up to the time of Martin Anstey who published his The Romance Of Bible Chronology in 1913. In that work Anstey traces the history of Chronology right up to the late 1800's and there was very little research published during that period so that means any new developments of that period had to wait some time for its employment.

scholar JW

421

70 years = 607?

by allelsefails in

70 years of captivity?.

i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.

that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.

scholar

Mary

Post 10893

As I thought the apostates even though on the winning side are scared.

In the broad stream of discussion interpretation is opinion, we say that our interpretation is based on certain facts and on Scripture thus the matter is 'proved' for all intents and purposes. Scholar has ably demonstrated the 'proof' of 607 BCE and shown in a rational way theat Neb's dream vision of Dan.4 has a minor and major fulfillment as shown by the context and the frequent use of the word 'Kingdom' which is eschatological. It is all there in the mix.

I agree my opinion by itself counts for nothing and neither does yours or anyone elses for that matter, What does matter is what God's Word states and our teachings/interpretations are soundly based on that firm foundation as you well know. You keep asserting that scholar has provided no proof but how do you explain the fact that scholar is actively present in defending, answering questions, explaining and refuting points that are raised on this subject for the last eight years? Scholar has been very busy indeed as he does not deal with fluff, fantasy but substance.

The fact is that many scholars today perhaps the majority regard Daniel as being fulfilled during the Maccabean period thus being unable to appreciate its value as prophecy. That is a simple fact as shown by consulting reference works and commentaries. This is something you should look into for yourself.

Our faith does not depend on any date how can it be the case when that numerical figure does not appear in the Bible! The date 1914 is calculated from an interpretation of a prophecy which is Biblical and that is the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24 and the tree dream of Daniel 4. Thus, our faith is based on an interpretation of biblical prophecy part of God's Word and that is how things should and must be.

Many on this board are without faith and I can see this from past and experience, one prominent example of this is Alan F who long contended with me on chronology and admitted on this very forum his atheism/agnosticism. The very fact that there are those who oppose divine and godly teaching as proclaimed by His Witnesses is proof of the fact that those who have left the Truth are indeed without faith. Further, such 'bedarkened' one have no unified teaching, broitherhood or ministry is proof of the matter.

scholar JW

54

The Governing Body's REAL critical date

by Doug Mason in

russell taught that 1914 ce would bring in an unprecedented era of peace.

in 1930, rutherford moved russells date of the parousia from 1874 to 1914. .

thus until 1930 not one follower had recognised the currently ascribed significance in heaven to the time that corresponds to 1914 on our earth.

scholar

Wobble

Post 1067

The theologians that you speak of are known biblically as the 'faihtful and discreet slave', the collective body of anointed ones known as the Church or the Body of Christ. These ones are the channel or instrument required to interpret Holy Scriptures and to preach the Gospel.

Yes I agree with you that personal reading of Scripture and prayer are vital aspects of Christian devotion and worship but a Christian by definition is not a solitary being but is part of a collective so being a Christian is being part of a community wherein one finds fellowship and a greater understanding of matters. Jehovah through His Word reveals His matters not an individual but through His Church which has always been the case from the earliest of times.

scholar JW

421

70 years = 607?

by allelsefails in

70 years of captivity?.

i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.

that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.

scholar

allelsefails

Post 83

Not necessarily, Russell and his contemporaries used the scholarship available at that time and at such time that information was accurate enough to develop an accurate Bible Chronology. You must remember that same chronology has produced dates for biblibal events that even up to our present day are still accurate such as dates ascribed to the Life and Death of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. In connection with the Return their calculation was sufficiently correct to enable them to determine the beginning, duration and end of the Gehtile Times in 1914 CE.

There is a scriptural tie between Daniel 4 and the Messianic Kingdom and indeeed Luke 21:24 and that is the Messianic prophecy in the latter part of Daniel 4:17.

The reason why the Witnesses have seen a need to revise older chronologies is because from the forties onward the celebrated WT scholars became abreast of developments in scholarship, archaeology etc. which enable a'fine tuning' of the existing chronology which has lead to the sixties whereupon a accurate scheme of Bible chronology is now availabel for all honest hearted and dear sheep-like people. Are you one of these?

scholar JW

54

The Governing Body's REAL critical date

by Doug Mason in

russell taught that 1914 ce would bring in an unprecedented era of peace.

in 1930, rutherford moved russells date of the parousia from 1874 to 1914. .

thus until 1930 not one follower had recognised the currently ascribed significance in heaven to the time that corresponds to 1914 on our earth.

scholar

Doug Mason

Post 561

Our claims for certain modern-day dates are based upon a careful study of eschatology as revealed in the Bible. Such revelation or disclosure is not for our timetable but rather depends on the Revealer of Secrets, Jehovah God and His Son Jesus Christ who is the Head of the Church. In human terms it is quite natural that immediate understanding of matters is sought and the apparent delay of some decades may give rise to the legitimacy of interpretation of certain dates such as 1914, 1918 and 1919 et cetera. Much of eschatology is based on the book of Revelation which in turns draws material from the book of Daniel and as you well known both of these books have attracted and caused a wide diversity of opinion and interpretation.

When these books were revealed to God's people the contents were subject to the timing of when the contents would be revealed and it is not for any human to override the timing of matters as to what day, month or year such should occur. God alone determines by His own Providence whence these things should occur and in the mean time His people are expected to be busy in the Lords's work and to Keep on the Watch. These things are very much characteristic of the Witnesses and those early Bible Students who were indeed people of faith.

scholar JW

421

70 years = 607?

by allelsefails in

70 years of captivity?.

i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.

that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.

scholar

allelsefails

Post 81

This Bible nor secular history gives the precise calender year for the Return only the year of Cyrus' Decree for the release of the Jews and that was the 1st year of Cyrus which its modern reckoning is Nisan of 538 BCE to Nisan 537 BCE. The Jews according to Ezra had returned home by the seventh month which means that this was in Cyrus' second year, 537 BCE according to Nisan reckoning.

scholar JW