scholar

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Posts by scholar

• 
  178

  Interesting Find with Chronology

  by Kelley959 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i hope this is in the right area.

  i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

  for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

  1. 
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  Question for 'scholar': if, as Watch Tower says, Daniel was brought to Babylon in 618 BCE and 3 years later was found by Nebuchadnezzar to be 10 times wiser than everyone else and given a position serving before the king, why was Daniel completely unknown to Nebuchadnezzar in 606 BCE when called to interpret a dream?

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  Why ask me such a question when you are such an expert so you must have an answer. The answer is simple. By the time Neb received his first dream in 606 BCE or thereabouts based on Dan 2:1, Daniel had already been in Babylon for at least 11 years having completed his three years of training becoming unlike yourself, a very wise man. As to whether he was known to Neb during that period of training and thereafter I do not know as I unlike you I am unfamiliar with the protocols of the Babylonian Court system.

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  (Answer: Watch Tower Society chronology is nuts. In the story*, Daniel is brought to Babylon in Nebuchadnezzar's first year and interprets the dream the following year during the training period, and then at the end of training all of the trainees are brought before Nebuchadnezzar for final assessment.)

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  This is nuts. You need to do more research on Dan 1:1-21 and you need to discard the idea that Daniel was written four centuries after the events described in his book.

  scholar JW
  
  
  
• 
  178

  Interesting Find with Chronology

  by Kelley959 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i hope this is in the right area.

  i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

  for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  haha. Yes, quote the bit that Watch Tower quotes (you plagiarised the whole paragraph from Awake!, June 2012, page 14), but leave out what Stern follows with:

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  No: I am very familiar with Stern and I copied and pasted that quote quite deliberately in anticipation of your reply. So, what we now have two quotes from Stern that appear to be contradictory which is simply part of the ongoing debate between archaeologists regarding the subject 'the Myth of the Empty Land' so the problem is with Stern not with WT scholars so better to stick to what God's Word says about the state of Judah during the Exile, Don't you think?

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  You're so dishonest. Also, 604 to 538 exactly corresponds to Nebuchadnezzar's demand for tribute in early 604 until the Jews' return in 538.

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  Dishonesty not necessary but simple 'rat cunning' in dealing with apostates and WT critics

  Nowhere do I find in the Bible a period of 66 years but a period of 70 years alone unless you have a Bible that has been adjusted to fit your nonsense chronology.

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  scholar JW
  
  
  
• 
  178

  Interesting Find with Chronology

  by Kelley959 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i hope this is in the right area.

  i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

  for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  We're talking about the Neo-Babylonian period, not the entire Divided Monarchy. Nice try at muddying the waters. But yes, even in the broader period, where there is disagreement among scholars, my timeline (with years for Judah and Israel based only on the Bible along with Decision Table analysis where needed) is within the bounds of the various years advanced by scholars unlike Watch Tower Society gibberish which is broadly recognised as fringe nonsense

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  Your timeline covers the Divided Monarchy and is part of Bible Chronology which should not be ignored as COJ does and WT scholars have always provided such a timeline. The Decision Tables as a Methodology are from Rodger Young's research which in itself is incredulous, proving nothing in resolving the 586/587 dilemma, in short, such analysis is gibberish.

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  You can talk in circles all you like, but your 'interpretation' (really just going along with Watch Tower) of Babylon's 70 years is plainly irrational.

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  I will leave the circular reasoning to you as you are an expert in this nonsense.

  Interestingly. at least one scholar has recognized that the 70 years is of those three elements that I have long argued for which are part of a thesis so we are not alone in this subject of the true nature of the 70 years.

  scholar JW
  
  

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  178

  Interesting Find with Chronology

  by Kelley959 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i hope this is in the right area.

  i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

  for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Rocketman123

  The WTS conveniently and perhaps dishonestly made servitude and desolation the same thing even though there was a clear distinction to what happened to Jerusalem and its inhabitants

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  No dishonesty just careful reading of the relevant is all that is required that the periods of servitude, exile and desolation are synchronistic, three elements running together as prophesied by Jeremiah, witnessed and experienced by Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezekiel and historically validated by Ezra the historian further confirmed by Josephus.

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  What is also interesting is lets say we use the year 537 as Scholar does and go back to 605 when Nebuchadnezzar first overthrew Jerusalem, you still only arrive at 68 years

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  Bad math. You can only 607 if you go back 70 years from 537 BCE. Try again!

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  The true desolation didn't start until 586 BCE.

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  Incorrect: 607 BCE is the only possible date

  scholar JW
  
  
  
• 
  178

  Interesting Find with Chronology

  by Kelley959 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i hope this is in the right area.

  i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

  for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  Nope. Wrong again. Not only are you obviously wrong about the duration of the exile (as distinct from Babylon's 70 years of power from 609 to 539), but parts of Judea remained populated through the exilic period (Ephraim Stern).

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  Nope! Wrong again: The 70 years of the Exile is identical with the 70 years of Babylonish Servitude along with 70 years of Desolation.

  Did the Israelites remain captive in Babylon for 70 years as the Bible foretold? Note the comments of a leading Israeli archaeologist, Ephraim Stern. “From 604 B.C.E. to 538 B.C.E.—there is a complete gap in evidence suggesting occupation. In all that time, not a single town destroyed by the Babylonians was resettled.” The so-called gap in which there was no occupation or resettling of conquered territory corresponds closely to Israel’s exile in Babylon from 607 to 537 B.C.E.—2 Chronicles 36:20, 21.

  So you should pay attention to Stern and while we are at it you should also read Avraham Faust!!-----Additionally, though Josephus erroneously gives 70 years in one location, he correctly gives 50 in others, but also indicates a 182.5 year period that is not compatible with Watch Tower Society chronology.----Josephus identifies the 70 years four times in agreement with WT interpretation and Chronology and on the 5th occasion he refers to a period of 50 years from an event within the 70 year period.
  scholar JW
  
  
  

  
  
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  178

  Interesting Find with Chronology

  by Kelley959 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i hope this is in the right area.

  i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

  for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  ou doggedly agree with a bunch of old men in New York. I have already provided a timeline of the period based only on the Bible, which just happens to agree with the best scholars on the matter.

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  Your timeline is faulty as its interpretation of the 70 years is misp[laced and further WT scholars have already produced a more accurate timeline. Scholars have different timelines for the Divided Monarchy and there is no consensus for this period of history within current scholarship so your comment that your timeline is in agreement with the best scholars is simply bunkum.

  scholar JW
  
  
• 
  178

  Interesting Find with Chronology

  by Kelley959 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i hope this is in the right area.

  i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

  for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Rocketman123

  Through historical evidence the land of Judea including Jerusalem lay desolate for only approximately 50 years, the accession over the land didn't start until the year Nebuchadnezzar took to throne after his father in 605 BCE.

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  The historical evidence is that Judah remained desolate for exactly 70 years and began with the Fall with Nerbuchadnezzer ending with the Return under Cyrus nicely confirmed by the historian Josephus in several places.The 70 years of Babylonian servitude could not have begun at the beginning of Neb's reign because Judah was under the domination of Egypt for a time.

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  Nebuchadnezzar's final invasion of Jerusalem including destroying the temple and taking most of the important inhabitants to Babylon was in his 19th year of rein

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  This deportation marked the beginning of the servitude of Jews to Babylon in 617 BCE with the Kings of Judah became vassals to neb but the 70 years did not begin at that time because the land had not become desolate with the beginning of the Exile.

  scholar JW

  
  
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  178

  Interesting Find with Chronology

  by Kelley959 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i hope this is in the right area.

  i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

  for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  MeanMrMustard

  No, the 70 years ends, then Babylon is called to account. This is the order objectively, clearly stated at Jer 25:12. And that fits with 2 Chronicles. The Bible need not contradict

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  True the Bible does not contradict so one's interpretation must be in harmony with not just the context, the Bible book itself and the whole Bible. The 70 years ends with the 'calling to account of Babylon' which according to Jer. 21:12 what is clearly stated in that verse was only after the 70 years was fulfilled and not before that time. When were the 70 years fulfilled? This could only be at the Return of the Jews in 537 BCE and not at the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE.

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  The servitude was many nations to Babylon (v 10,11), and was already ongoing at the time of Jer 25 - see v18 "as they are today".

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  The servitude to Babylon of a specific period of 70 years applied to Judah which also included other nations as stated in Jer. 25:11

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  ou don't even need to get into contemporary sources. A grammatical reading of the text rules out WT chronology.

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  Are you an expert in Hebrew and Bible translation?

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  You concede WT chronology is incorrect. If "Babylon was already brought to account with the release of the Exiles" in 539, and Jer 25:12 states the seventy years end before the calling to account, then the 70 years ended 539 or before. But definitely not 537.

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  I concede no such thing. Babylon's calling to account or judgement was not immediate but a process in time as verse 12 clearly explains culminating with its desolation of the land which did not happen in 539 BCE. A careful and not sloppy reading of that verse proves that the judgement against Babylon could only have begun after the Return of the Jews in 537 BCE.

  scholar JW emeritus
  
  
  
• 
  178

  Interesting Find with Chronology

  by Kelley959 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i hope this is in the right area.

  i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

  for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  notsurewheretogo

  And still gets it wrong and shows Cognitive Dissonance.

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  Unlike you, I am in control of my cognitive dissonance.

  scholar JW
  
  
• 
  178

  Interesting Find with Chronology

  by Kelley959 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i hope this is in the right area.

  i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

  for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Rocketman123

  This is a typical way JWs get around the 70 years of desolation, they interpret words selectively to suit themselves.

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  Chronology is about Methodology and Interpretation. We have the right to interpret the Bible and you have that same right to do so so stop whining and being a 'girlie man'.

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  So SA what year did Nebuchadnezzar finally invaded Jerusalem and destroy the Temple there ?

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  607 BCE

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  What year did Nebuchadnezzar firstly overthrow Jerusalem and take controlling power over the city and its inhabitants ?

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  617 BCE

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  No lies but simple facts or our wondrous Bible Chronology!!!

  scholar JW