Posts by scholar

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Thomas More

Fisherman: Don’t think WT now teaches that. “circa 1914” not 1914 as discussed in another thread

This subtle change was never fully addressed but gave Watchtower an out on the sequence of events that lead to WW1. They are a slippery sort when it comes to rationality. I don't agree with their reasoning nor with 1914 doctrine, but I have to give them credit for the curve ball they pitched to get themselves out of that mess of a timing dilemma. Using their reasoning allows Satan to be evicted 10 months prior to the establishment of the Kingdom (supposedly in October of 1914). The question is: Does any JW actually care? Very few are able to explain the lunacy of the overlapping generation so why would they care if Satan got tossed out months before the Kingdom was established. They just accept it and order another drink.

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The answer is very simple. The fact is that we can determine precisely the ending of the Gentile Times right to the very calender month, October 1914 which also providentially marked the birth of God's Kingdom. Sequentially, the book of Revelation describes the ousting of Satan consequently after the birth of the Kingdom but does not provide a calendar month for that event thus once the date of 1914 is established then this provides a chronological anchor point for those events that properly form an eschatological triennium; 1914, 1918 and 1919.

You gotta luv the said scholar's mighty defence!!!! LOL

scholarJW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven7

Nah. Matthew 24:1-35 was fulfilled in the first century' nothing to do with newspaper exegesis Witnesses use to support 1914.

There were no signs given in Matthew 24 to announce or give evidence for Christ's parousia.

You have shown no credible evidence for 1914. I have presented scripture to support first century enthronement. Plain and simple.

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Why not put your feet where your mouth is and try to convince the public otherwise. In my public ministry either from house to house or in the public square the Witnesses have no difficulty in convincing people that the Sign is being fulfilled right before their eyes for they see the evidence on TV and in the newspapers.

Matt 24:14; Mark 13:10 and Revelation 14:6,7 prove the fact that of the Sign as with the worldwide proclamation of the Gospel only done by the Witnesses..

Rather than you being an armchair critic or sceptic why do not go out and give a public witness of the Gospel?

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Disillusioned JW

When it comes to books about the Bible (including theology) produced for public (often at very low prices) the WTS, the publisher of the LDS, and the publishers of the SDA to to me to produce by far the most literature. But which Christian publishers, if any, produce more such literture? Also, which Christian publishers produce far better Bible literature for the general public than the WTS, while at the same time in large quantities?

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Good points for it is only WTS that produces Bibles and extensive Bible literature free of charge and available in thousands of languages with a freely available Website which can be accessed for Bible questions and Research.

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Christian Publishing is an academic subject in its own right and here in Australia, I have acquired books for my extensive theological library from Koorong Books which is the nations leading bookstore and from Moore Theological College Bookshop in Newtown, Sydney.

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Are Zondervan, Thomas Neslson, and Holman in that group and maybe Abingdon? What about Oxford and Cambridge? It seems to me they produce books by a large number of authors, since they are not specific to any particular religion of Christianity. In order to get a consistent Christian message, perhaps I should ask which publisher of a specific church/denomination of Christianity produces the best doctrinal literature about the Bible.

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The problem with these Publishing Houses of which there are many is the cost of such books which is beyond what a working man can afford. A decent Bible Commentary Series having multiple volumes can cost well over a thousand dollars and usually are used for ministers, theological students and scholars. WT publications on the other hand are accessible to a literate public.

scholar JW

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540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven 7

There is no credible scriptural evidence for Christ being enthroned in 1914. You mentioned Daniel 2:44. Adam Maarschalk has a great article on this demonstrating that Jesus kingdom rule began in the first century. Note the scholarly exegesis he provide

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The credible evidence that Christ was enthroned in 1914 is the fact that we are seeing the Sign of His Presence which he details and all of those things are clearly visible since 1914 CE. Who is this Adam Maarschalk and please present his exegesis in full for snippets do not mean much? Further, what is this person's view as to when Daniel was written for his belief on this matter would underpin his interpretation?

-- Dan. 2: 44 and vs 45 climaxes that prophetic vision so it would be fulfilled long after the fall of the Roman Empire being fulfilled at the time of the feet of the image, a Power that would be of iron and clay so his interpretation is well off the beaten track amounting to nonsense.

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Jesus thus proclaimed that the kingdom would be taken away from the corrupt Jewish religious leaders at the time of their judgment for shedding the blood of God’s saints and God’s Son. (This judgment was to fall upon Jesus’ own generation, according to Matthew 23:29-37.) It was at this time that the kingdom would be given to a fruit-bearing nation, the church.

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Are you now saying that the Kingdom of God is the Church? If so what is the Church today in order to qualify as God's Kingdom?

You have some BIG questions to answer!!!

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven 7

Why reference an apostate (Furuli) to support your organization's multiple assumption speculation.

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Why not? Furuli notwithstanding his current status remains a scholar who has done much fine work in Chronology so would be considered an expert in this and other related subjects.

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As I said, I concur with the New Testament....not a man-made, man-run organization that never got a single prophecy right.

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I concur with the entire Bible as God's Word as my authority.

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Can you list for me what you know are false or misapplied interpretations of Biblical prophecy made by your organization followed by a list of all the clearly correct interpretations of Biblical prophecy they have made?

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That may well be a long list and I am sure that you would have such a list but one thing is for certain is that our Organization or Church has done two things unlike all others:

1. Have a long history of 'Keeping on the Watch' or as one scholar describes practising

Christian Watchfulness.

2. Have an Eschatology based on the prophecies from the OT and NT

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Disillusioned JW

Regarding Fisherman's claim that "There is zero empirical evidence that 586 is the destruction of Jerusalem -only an interpretation of the Stele which Scholar refuted in previous thread years ago ...." and the idea that "1914 has not been debunked", what about the research by Carl Olof Jonsson? M. James Penton in his Apocalypse Delayed book says that Jonsson "discovered that the society's contention that Jerusalem had fallen to Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon in 607 BC was historically, archaeologically, and astronomically indefensible". Notice there is historical and archaeological evidence against the 607 BCE date, not just astronomical evidence from one Stele.

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There is zero empirical evidence for 586 or 587BCE for the Fall of Jerusalem because there is abundant biblical, secular and historical evidence for 607 BCE mainly based on the 70 years and through the research of Semitic scholar, Rolf Furuli has now been shown to be astronomically defensible.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven 7

The JW theory is obviously convoluted and confusing.

If we examine Daniel 2, it is obvious that the kingdom would be established “in the days of those kings” (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome), not 1,900 years later

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It is not obvious at all. Daniel 2: 44 clearly relates to a future time when God's Kingdom would exercise dominion over all the Earth by replacing all human governments.

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The vision of the great tree has nothing to do, contextually or otherwise, with the Jerusalem kingdom but describes King Nebuchadnezzar’s greatness, his abasement, and subsequent reinstatement (cf. Dan. 4:1-37)

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Nonsense, the tree dream celebrates God's Kingdom as the fulfilment of the dream as a lesson of Sovereignty.

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There are no contextual links between the “times” in Daniel 4 and Revelation 12 that would necessitate an interpretative connection. It is wrong to tie different texts together simply to prove a predetermined, unscriptural poin

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Nonsense, the exegetical links are the lexical meaning of 'times' and 'time' both in Aramaic and Greek and the simple fact that both books share the common theme of 'God's Kingdom as well as the fact that both books are prophetic and are of Eschatology- 'Lord's Day' and 'time of distress and 'time of the end'.

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Though in poetic and prophetic Biblical literature “days” can represent periods of times (or “years”), figurative language cannot be forced into a literal application. (Notice in the above quote that “seven times” is semi-literal but becomes 2,520 days—figurative—then to 2,520 years—literal. It is too inconsistent, and God is not the author of confusion!)

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This is the essence of sound biblical exegesis

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Obviously, with such flawed interpretations of Biblical prophecy, the third question—When did Jesus become king?—is answered incorrectly by Jehovah’s Witnesses WDJBK

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The said scholar answers that question triumphantly to wit- 1914 CE

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven

Regarding when Jesus became king, McDaniel writes:

The truth is, Jesus became king when He ascended to heaven in AD 30 and established the church. Before that time, Jesus (along with others) promised that the kingdom was at hand (cf. Matt. 4:17). The first century was the “fullness of the time” (cf. Gal. 4:4; Eph. 1:10), the predicted age of the Roman Empire when God would establish His eternal kingdom (cf. Dan. 2:44; 7:13-14). When the Lord returned to heaven, He possessed (and possesses) all authority (cf. Matt. 28:18), sat down on His Father’s throne (cf. Heb. 1:1-3; Eph. 1:18-23), and admitted the saved into His kingdom (cf. Col. 1:12-14).

So Fisherman and Scholar

Notice that Paul and all Christians at the time were saved and had been transferred from darkness into an already existing kingdom, the Kingdom of Christ in century one.

Colossians 1:13 KJV — Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

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So how do you explain Daniel 2:44 and other related texts in Daniel that refer to God's kingdom as fully developed in Daniel 4?

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven

I concur with the New Testament....not a man-made, man-run organization that never did get a prophecy right.

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If this is what you really believe then what then is your Eschatology for Eschatology is a major subject of the NT?

The Lord's people as a Church or Organization must be interested in Prophecy and its fulfilment so are you involved in Prophecy? Do you have a keen prophetic outlook as encouraged by the Apostle Peter by paying attention to the prophetic Word?

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Vanderhoven 7

You list 11 Assumptions which the said scholar is able to respond to each Assumption in kind. But the difficulty that you have is that you have no Eschatology at all and the Poster of those 11 Assumptions must account for his or her Eschatology. The teaching of 1914 as doctrine is a celebration of Eschatology a subject of which is well mentioned in many leading Bible commentaries but the Witnesses because they have discerned as the Lord and the prophet Daniel lauded that God's people would be people of discernment, able to understand the times we live in today as Bible prophecy is being fulfilled and heeding the Lord's admonition to ' Keep On the Watch!1

The problem that unbelievers and sceptics alike have is that 1914 with the ending of the Gentile Times was believed to be a meaningful event at the time of 1917 when many prominent religious leaders in Christendom published a manifesto regarding the ending of the Gentile Times which in accordance with Biblical Theology introduces the subject of Eschatology and it is this simple fact that underpins 1914 as sound biblical doctrine.

Further, it is a fact that if you read Bible commentaries you will notice that considerable emphasis is placed on Eschatology but it is only the Witnesses that make it relevant in their preaching and teaching ministry.

scholar JW