Posts by scholar

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

I don’t know why you expect me to provide you with all the answers. I’m not here to spoon feed people nor to garner followers, nor to keep repeating information that has been posted on here for years. I have already linked to information about the book of Daniel in this thread, and the mainstream view also isn’t some national secret, yet you seem more focused on Christian commentaries as your source. Perhaps try Wikipedia as a starting point to find citations to scholarly sources.

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The difficulty that you have is that you simply rehash opinion, not addressing simple basic questions relating to your opinion or the opinion of so-called mainstream scholarship whic simply amounts to an assertion.

For example, you have made reference to the Wikipedia article on Daniel whose very own opening statement states "The Book of Daniel is a 2nd century BC biblical apocalypse with a 6th century BC century setting".whic sources the most prominent Danielic scholar, John Collins. The article provides no proof or evidence in support of this claim or 'mantra' and neither do you in your website article 'Daniel's dreams and visions' which asserts the following on page 2 of the article:

"Whilst it is possible that some of the tales were based on older folklore, there is broad agreement among biblical scholars that the book of Daniel was actually written in the second century BCE". Nowhere in the 12-page article do you provide any substantive fact or line of evidence that supports your position yet you claim that your research is independent of others.

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If you are willing to defer to supernatural ‘explanations’ for the author of Daniel supposedly having access to future events, it is preposterous that you would expect detailed evidence from me for ‘daring’ to suggest the plainly reasonable conclusion that the author of Daniel wrote about things that had already happened but used a setting of the Neo-Babylonian period as a metaphor for events up to and including the Seleucid period.

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Utter nonsense.It is not a matter of deferring to some supernatural influence at all but simply reading the book already acknowledged to be of a sixth-century setting, date stamped nine times with clear twelve statements of a future application consistent with already OT prophetic genre.

To argue that somehow the book is of a 2nd-century composition requires a 2nd century setting with date stamps matching that time period but such requisites are missing from the book thus it is quite preposterous to argue this position without firm indices.

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To argue that somehow Daniel used its sixth century setting as a metaphor for the Seleucid period is an historical fabrication disproved by the very fact that in its 11 th chapter a portion of the Seleucid period is referred to in combination with reference to the corresponding Ptolemaic period which occurred long after Daniel's day succeeding after already identified previous World powers. In short, the successive world events from the sixth century as described historically is a direct and explicit confirmation of its agreed apocalyptic nature apart from the book's internal and external evidence.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

ozziepost

I accept that this is a contested question.
I also accept that Jews themselves have held the book of Daniel to be part of their canon.
I accept the book of Daniel to be part of God’s inspired word to humankind.

From both my JW background and Moore exposure I see that God’s sovereignty over human affairs is the theme of the book of Daniel and the record of the Babylonian kingdom being replaced by the Persian, in turn the Greek then the Roman Empire is all described, but finally God’s eternal kingdom.

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Thanks for your comment and it would appear that we are on the same page in that the theme of Daniel is God's sovereignty over mankind or human affairs expressed by the temporary rulership of the major World powers from Daniel's days to be replaced by God's eternal Kingdom.

However, you failed to give your opinion as to the book's date of composition and would be interesting to know if the Anglican Church has an official position on this contested subject?

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In the absence of a clear interpretation from either yourself or your Church of Daniel's prophecies, it is rather odd that you complain about WT theology being convoluted when in fact much of it is in fact grounded in Orthodoxy i.e. we accept most of the major basic doctrines of Christianity.

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I ‘hear’ many of the points that you and others are posting on this thread but it ultimately comes down to whether we want to come ‘under the word’ or ‘over it’.

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Very true but the science of interpretation known as Hermeneutics allows for the role of both methods in the interpretation of God's Word the Bible - Exegesis and Eisegesis. The latter method is applicable, especially when dealing with the apocalyptic genre such as the books of Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation.

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ou must admit that the W/T’s writings have been well short of the plausible.

Come on, do you truly believe all that Anglo-America stuff?

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Yes I find it very plausible as our interpretation is well-grounded in both ancient and modern history as well explained in the two published commentaries on Daniel in 1958 and 1999. I had the experience some years ago whilst doing research on the tree vision of Dan.4. to make a thorough survey of the available commentaries on Daniel located altogether on a bookshelf at Moore College and made just such a comparison of our interpretation with that of the then prevailing scholarship. I then believed and still believe that we gave got it just right!! making plain common sense.

By way of interest, the two leading commentaries are of John Collins and of Klaus Koch both are a must-have in studying this fascinating book

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

ozziepost

What is your position on Daniel? Was it composed in the 6th century or 2nd century BC?

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

No, liar. That is explicitly the opposite of what I said. I said “My own independent analysis”, adding that it is “in agreement with” the mainstream view. Are you dishonest or just stupid?

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Well if you have some 'independent analysis' as you claim then 'Where is it?' Or is this some pretence of yours solely relying on mainstream scholarship?

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I distinctly remember someone saying something similar to me in 1521. I know, I’m not old enough for that to be true, but it’s right here in black and white so I guess it’s undeniable. 🤣

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Well based on your appeal for rationality the argument presented is quite reasonable for the book contains nine date stamps or time stamps covering a historic period of 82 years- 618c BC- 536 BCE

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Ha Ha Ha Ha shows that you are a fool a simple Nitpicker!

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

So now you have finally revealed the truth of the matter in that rather than your opinion that Daniel was not a prophetic work of the 6th century BCE but of the 2nd century BC is based not on your personal research but on mainstream scholarly consensus

How foolish your position is and underscores all of your own so-called independent thinking on Chronology posted on your website- simply the majority opinion of others which in your case amounts to 'nitpicking'.

You appeal to rationality yet you ignore the obvious two facts that Daniel in its entirety provides nine chronological data that establishes the time when Daniel received the visions described by him. Next, Daniel sets out 12 references to the future which convey a futuristic outlook rather than a historic outlook.

Regarding 'mainstream scholarly consensus' of which you boast this has been recently challenged by a Semitic scholar and former Witness, Rolf Furuli who refutes the Maccabean Thesis in great depth.

Further, leading SDA scholars have also debunked this so-called consensus in the published Symposium on Daniel- Daniel & Revelation Committee Series Vol. 2, Frank B. Holbrook, Editor, 1986, Biblical Research Insitute.

More noteworthy however are the two WT publications on Daniel published as commentaries on the book which assists any reader to approach the subject rationally.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

Stop the posturing and grandstanding for you fool no one. Just get on with it and provide one simple fact that proves the 2nd century BC composition of Daniel's prophecy.

Get cracking!!!

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

There’s no evidence the author of Daniel wrote any ‘prophecies’ at all or that ‘prophecy’ (as distinct from predictions based on other methods such as speculation, trend analysis etc) is even possible. Though presented as ‘prophecy’, obvious references to the Seleucid period and the overall purpose of the book negate any need for any reliance on such superstitions. The purpose of setting the events in the Neo-Babylonian period and phrasing the stories as ‘prophecy’ helps reinforce the parallels between Babylonian and Syrian oppression

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Nonsense. For indeed there is abundant evidence that Daniel was of the sixth century BC and not the 2nd century BC. Such internal evidence consists of nine chronological data that indicate the exact time when the prophet Daniel received his visions. The book apart from being prophetic is also historic in that it provides historical information pertaining to current and future World Powers and various Kingdoms such as the Ptolemaic Kingdom and the Seleucid Kingdom. These two kingdoms are described in Dan.11

There is simply no evidence for a 2nd-century composition and you have failed to provide one fact or one line of evidence but simply a rehash of a prevailing hypothesis.

Further, the book of Daniel employs futuristic language in 12 verses from Dan. 2:29 to Dan 12:9 which is consistent with a prophetic genre.

Apart from internal evidence, there is external evidence that proves its 6th-century composition rather than a 2nd-century composition such as textual tradition, linguistics etc

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scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Disillusioned JW

Jeffro regarding your advice to me that I "... should consider carefully the scholarship of Jehovah's Witnesses by means of their publication", I have studied many of their publications. I was raised as a JW from infancy, enrolled in the Theocratic Ministry School at age 8, became baptized at age 15, became a ministerial servant at age 19 (shortly after I began attending college), became a regular pioneer at just before age 22 (a few months before receiving my Bachelor Science Degree in Business Administration), and later gave some public talks. But during that long time period I did not "... find Bible Study a joyful experience". Furthermore, from teen years onward I noticed that the WT on numerous times changed their teachings, resulting in them declaring their abandoned teachings as false, though previously saying that JWs could not speak against those teachings without being considered an apostate and thus shunned by JWs. A number of times why I was an JW I noticed that some of WT's then current teachings were problematic, but because I was baptized by them and felt pressured to remain an active JW, I pushed to the back of my mind the problems I saw regarding some WT teachings. Instead of Bible study, I wanted to spend my time in secular pursuits, such as studying science and inventions and trying to invent something myself, and trying to make a lot of money in the stock market. Eventually starting in 1995 I started seeing major problems with some core teachings of the WT teachings (including their claim of the governing body being anointed by Jehovah) and God) and thus in about 2001 I stopped being active as a JW and began independent study of the Bible. I also began collecting very old WT books (including ones by Rutherford an Russell) and seeing what they reveal about the degree of credibility of the WT's claim of being chosen by Jehovah God as his instrument and his channel of communication.

During my independent study I started enjoying Bible study because I was free to study about the Bible what I wanted, the way I wanted, and was free to reject teachings which seemed false to me. But after I started seeing numerous major problems with even the Bible, after I discovered that biological evolution is true and that there never was a global flood on Earth, and after I discovered that Jehovah God and a supernatural Jesus Christ are both unreal, I began loosing my joy in studying the Bible. I am thus now at the point where I consider ceasing all study of the Bible, but my desire to convince others to become atheistic naturalists compels me to continuing studying the Bible (so I can reveal problems of the Bible effectively to others). I am trying to ween myself from studying the Bible, much as I have mostly weened myself from studying WT literature.

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I am saddened to read of your experience but sadly your journey is typical of many former Witnesses. It would appear that you have dug an 'intellectual grave ' for yourself and have not developed the necessary tools to build up your faith.

My experience as an active Witness for 60 years is one of developing an inquiring mind and independent thinking reinforced by a deep knowledge of the Bible and WT Theology along with a passion for Philosophy. I have acquired Degrees in Religious Studies and Philosophy as a mature age student and was in the habit of doing much research at a local theological seminary library dealing with many questions and issues raise whilst pioneering.

I have debated at some length with Jewish rabbis of an ultra orthodox sect of Judaism- Hasidim over the Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks of years and many other subjects to boot. One prominent rabbi was an academic-Dean of the Faculty of Mathematics who gave me a copy of a scientific paper published in a leading journal disproving Evolution on the basis of statistics.

By means of my academic studies and consulting widely all of the leading Bible commentaries- Catholic, Jewish, Protestant and Evangelical that the Witnesses do indeed have the 'Truth' and are the True religion despite the many challenges that confront the nature of discipleship.In addition one of the most important tools in scholarship is access to academic Journals which have always for many decades formed a large part of my Theocratic Toolbox. In short, my Toolbox includes WT Publications- past and present, major Bible Commentaries and Academic Journals.

This is where our critics and apostates fail in that they lack the scholarship or the academic tools in order to defend their faith or uphold their faith and that is not only a problem for you but for the likes of Jeffro and the late Alan F- May he rest in peace!!

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

Get cracking on that list. 😂

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No, you should get cracking on providing proof for your opinion that Daniel was of the 2nd century. Stop stalling and get on with it!!!

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Disillusioned JW

he various commentaries I read disagree with each other in regards to various particulars and it is very hard (in regards to various particulars) to determine the correct meaning of a number of scripture passages. Studying the Bible is thus wearisome to my mind.

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For this reason, you should consider carefully the scholarship of Jehovah's Witnesses by means of their publications which have fully addressed the many issues that you raise then you will find Bible Study a joyful experience as I have done since 1958.

scholar JW