Jeffro
Apparently he has still missed the point. 🙄🤦♂️
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Apparently your point is rather pointless!
scholar JW
scholar
JoinedPosts by scholar
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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scholar
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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scholar
Jeffro
No nitpicker, I find it rather odd that you dismiss quite readily the nine-date stamps in Daniel as of no significance in establishing not just it's setting but its date of composition and the fact that it is a book of prophecy. Whereas when it comes to a matter of chronology and history in establishing the time and length of the siege of Jerusalem you appeal to Ezekiel who similar to Daniel was a prophet and his book as like Daniel is a prophecy.
Further, Ezekiel only has one regnal date stamp and eleven time stamps, two of which you quote in support of your argument namely Ezek. 24:1; 33:21 so your position is rather false and inconsistent. What then is your date of composition of Ezekiel ? Do you regard this book as prophetic?
scholar JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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scholar
Jeffro
Huh? Trust 'scholar' to entirely miss the point. 🤦♂️
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Ha ha! Trust Jeffro to get tied up with date stamps. LOL
scholar JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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scholar
Jeffro
Speaking of dates, 'scholar', do you agree with the Watch Tower Society that the siege against Jerusalem prior to its destruction lasted 18 months, or with me and Ezekiel that it lasted 30 months?
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The siege lasted for 18 months for the idea that the siege lasted for about two and a half years-30 months according to Carl Jonsson (GTR,2004, p.348) and Jeffro is preposterous and conflicts with the precise period of 18 months in 2Kings 25:1-4 as per this date stamp.
scholar JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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scholar
Jeffro
Can't argue with date stamps. 🤦♂️ (That's 19 March 590 BCE, Julian calendar. It was a Sunday.
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False, Daniel on the 8th day of Nisan, in the 15th year (19 March 590 BCE) of King Nebuchadnezzer is now contemplating the fulfilment of Jeremiah's prophecy about the Fall of Jerusalem and the beginning of the foretold 70 years with King Zedekiah's rebellion against King Nebuchadnezzar who invades Judah for the third time followed by his siege of Jerusalem and its later Fall in 607 BCE per date stamp in 2 Ki. 25:1-2.
scholar JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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scholar
Jeffro
You keep repeating this nonsense over and over again as if you genuinely don't understand that someone can write something referring to an earlier date. The only bona fide thing approaching 'date-stamping' as to when Daniel was written is the fact that it refers to events that are agreed to have occurred during the Seleucid period.
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Nonsense, the simple fact is that there are date stamps for all of the visions that Daniel received so it can be argued that such historic settings prove the date of the setting of the book and its composition. If this view is incorrect then you need to prove it otherwise and this you and mainstream scholarship cannot do and have not done.
The so-called agreement is not proof but opinion and others can quite properly affirm its sixth-century composition and not that of the 2nd-century nonsense.
scholar JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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scholar
Jeffro
Post- Redisillusioned JW
I don’t know why you expect me to provide you with all the answers. I’m not here to spoon feed people nor to garner followers, nor to keep repeating information that has been posted on here for years. I have already linked to information about the book of Daniel in this thread, and the mainstream view also isn’t some national secret, yet you seem more focused on Christian commentaries as your source. Perhaps try Wikipedia as a starting point to find citations to scholarly sources.
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The difficulty that you have is that you simply rehash opinion, not addressing simple basic questions relating to your opinion or the opinion of so-called mainstream scholarship whic simply amounts to an assertion.
For example, you have made reference to the Wikipedia article on Daniel whose very own opening statement states "The Book of Daniel is a 2nd century BC biblical apocalypse with a 6th century BC century setting".whic sources the most prominent Danielic scholar, John Collins. The article provides no proof or evidence in support of this claim or 'mantra' and neither do you in your website article 'Daniel's dreams and visions' which asserts the following on page 2 of the article:
"Whilst it is possible that some of the tales were based on older folklore, there is broad agreement among biblical scholars that the book of Daniel was actually written in the second century BCE". Nowhere in the 12-page article do you provide any substantive fact or line of evidence that supports your position yet you claim that your research is independent of others.
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If you are willing to defer to supernatural ‘explanations’ for the author of Daniel supposedly having access to future events, it is preposterous that you would expect detailed evidence from me for ‘daring’ to suggest the plainly reasonable conclusion that the author of Daniel wrote about things that had already happened but used a setting of the Neo-Babylonian period as a metaphor for events up to and including the Seleucid period.
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Utter nonsense.It is not a matter of deferring to some supernatural influence at all but simply reading the book already acknowledged to be of a sixth-century setting, date stamped nine times with clear twelve statements of a future application consistent with already OT prophetic genre.
To argue that somehow the book is of a 2nd-century composition requires a 2nd century setting with date stamps matching that time period but such requisites are missing from the book thus it is quite preposterous to argue this position without firm indices.
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To argue that somehow Daniel used its sixth century setting as a metaphor for the Seleucid period is an historical fabrication disproved by the very fact that in its 11 th chapter a portion of the Seleucid period is referred to in combination with reference to the corresponding Ptolemaic period which occurred long after Daniel's day succeeding after already identified previous World powers. In short, the successive world events from the sixth century as described historically is a direct and explicit confirmation of its agreed apocalyptic nature apart from the book's internal and external evidence.
scholar JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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scholar
ozziepost
- I accept that this is a contested question.
- I also accept that Jews themselves have held the book of Daniel to be part of their canon.
- I accept the book of Daniel to be part of God’s inspired word to humankind.
From both my JW background and Moore exposure I see that God’s sovereignty over human affairs is the theme of the book of Daniel and the record of the Babylonian kingdom being replaced by the Persian, in turn the Greek then the Roman Empire is all described, but finally God’s eternal kingdom.
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Thanks for your comment and it would appear that we are on the same page in that the theme of Daniel is God's sovereignty over mankind or human affairs expressed by the temporary rulership of the major World powers from Daniel's days to be replaced by God's eternal Kingdom.
However, you failed to give your opinion as to the book's date of composition and would be interesting to know if the Anglican Church has an official position on this contested subject?
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In the absence of a clear interpretation from either yourself or your Church of Daniel's prophecies, it is rather odd that you complain about WT theology being convoluted when in fact much of it is in fact grounded in Orthodoxy i.e. we accept most of the major basic doctrines of Christianity.
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I ‘hear’ many of the points that you and others are posting on this thread but it ultimately comes down to whether we want to come ‘under the word’ or ‘over it’.
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Very true but the science of interpretation known as Hermeneutics allows for the role of both methods in the interpretation of God's Word the Bible - Exegesis and Eisegesis. The latter method is applicable, especially when dealing with the apocalyptic genre such as the books of Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation.
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ou must admit that the W/T’s writings have been well short of the plausible.
Come on, do you truly believe all that Anglo-America stuff?
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Yes I find it very plausible as our interpretation is well-grounded in both ancient and modern history as well explained in the two published commentaries on Daniel in 1958 and 1999. I had the experience some years ago whilst doing research on the tree vision of Dan.4. to make a thorough survey of the available commentaries on Daniel located altogether on a bookshelf at Moore College and made just such a comparison of our interpretation with that of the then prevailing scholarship. I then believed and still believe that we gave got it just right!! making plain common sense.
By way of interest, the two leading commentaries are of John Collins and of Klaus Koch both are a must-have in studying this fascinating book
scholar JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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scholar
ozziepost
What is your position on Daniel? Was it composed in the 6th century or 2nd century BC?
scholar JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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scholar
Jeffro
No, liar. That is explicitly the opposite of what I said. I said “My own independent analysis”, adding that it is “in agreement with” the mainstream view. Are you dishonest or just stupid?
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Well if you have some 'independent analysis' as you claim then 'Where is it?' Or is this some pretence of yours solely relying on mainstream scholarship?
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I distinctly remember someone saying something similar to me in 1521. I know, I’m not old enough for that to be true, but it’s right here in black and white so I guess it’s undeniable. 🤣
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Well based on your appeal for rationality the argument presented is quite reasonable for the book contains nine date stamps or time stamps covering a historic period of 82 years- 618c BC- 536 BCE
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Ha Ha Ha Ha shows that you are a fool a simple Nitpicker!
scholar JW