Posts by scholar

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

The only way to reconcile a siege of 18 months leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem relies on the following assumptions:

Other verses in 2 Kings that establish the use of Tishri/non-accession dating for kings of Judah are unrelated to the dating used for Zedekiah
The author of 2 Kings used Nisan/accession dating for Zedekiah
The author of 2 Kings used Nisan/accession dating for Nebuchadnezzar
The author of 2 Kings starts Zedekiah's accession year from the year that began in Nisan of 597 ('617') BCE

----

The only to determine the length of Jerusael's siege is to pay heed to the description in 2 Ki. 25:1,2 for therein it gives the date stamps for the beginning and end of the siege which durations is clearly that of 18 months and not the preposterous 30 months. One does not need to get into the calendrical muddle as you recommend or insist. Your tabulation of four assumptions illustrates the dilemma that you have created for yourself.

---

No other combination of the dating systems can reconcile an 18-month siege with Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year and Ezekiel's stated years of exile (with or without accepting a handful of alternative manuscripts that say 11 instead of 12 at Ezekiel 33:21).

---

This is the very reason why one should adhere to the two date stamps in 2 Ki.25:1,2 as the primary basis for determining the length of the siege. Ezekiel 33:21 and the Neb's 19 th year in no way disprove the length of the siege as being of 18 months as Neb's regnal years are easily synchronized with the regnal years of King Zedekiah and the text of Ezekiel which counts from the beginning of Ezekiel's Exile in 617 BCE simply affirms that after a passage of time news of Jerusalem's destruction reached Ezekiel. It is all very simple!!!

----

However, if the JW teaching is accepted that Nebuchadnezzar's reign (accesion year) began in 625 BCE, those assumptions require that the siege began in January 607 BCE and ended in July 606 BCE. That conclusion is consistent with Russell's teaching that the 'gentile times' ran from 606 BCE until 1914 (because he didn't realise there is no 'year 0'), but destroys the JW interpretation (from 1943 onward). (Unfortunately for 'scholar', though the Watch Tower Society does insist of Nisan dating for Judah in 2 Kings, it also said - way back in 1964 but never changed - that Zedekiah's 1st regnal year began Nisan 617 BCE, so even trying to stretch everything in favour of poor 'scholar', this too is a failure.)

--

Nope, for it is accepted that Neb's first year began in 625 BCE thus it is easily computed that the timing of his 18 the regnal year synchronized to Zedekiah's 11 th regnal year is 607 BCE. ending the 18th-month siege. Your argument about the Russell and the zero year is inapplicable as the issue at hand does not cross over from the BC to CE era.

Nowhere does the WT Society insist on certain calendar systems are applicable for we have always recognized that for OT Chronology both a Tishri/ Nisan or Spring/Autumn calendars were used in ancient Palestine. There is no room for dogmatism in dealing with what calendar was used by Jeremiah in his composition of Kings.

---

'scholar' will now continue to prattle on about 'interpretation and methodology'.

---

Just so, as these two cardinal principles are the essence of Bible Chronology.

scholar JW

🤣

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jefro

Where assumptions were made in my previous post, they were concessions giving your position the best chance of success. Your position is logically impossible.

---

That is fine because assumptions are part and parcel of any scheme of Chronology.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

In determining dating systems for the relevant period, one can choose from Nisan/accession, Nisan/non-accession, Tishri/accession or Tishri/non-accession dating-

--

Yes, one has that choice but that comes down to methodology and interpretation which can lead to different schemes of chronology--

--

When considering 2 Kings 25:1-8 (specifically, verses 1, 2 & 8), using Nisan/non-accession or Tishri/accession dating for kings of Judah cannot be reconciled with any of the dating systems for Nebuchadnezzar's reign.

---

Why is it necessary to synchronize a Jewish regnal date system with that of the NB Period at every point unless stated otherwise as that does in fact create chronological and historical issues?

---

It is evident from Ezekiel that the author uses Tishri-based dating for enumerating years of exile. However if Ezekiel 33:21 is considered in a vacuum and it is further assumed that most manuscripts and translations (including the NWT) are wrong and that Ezekiel 'really' learned of Jerusalem's fall in the 11th year of exile, this still cannot be reconciled with 2 Kings using Tishri/accession dating for kings of Judah or for using Nisan/accession or Tishri/accession dating for Babylon; further, unless it is assumed the author of Ezekiel counts years of exile from Nisan of 597, using Nisan/accession dating for Judah is also impossible.

--

That is not evident at all but simply assumed and such assumptions create issues that perplex current scholarship. All that we know for certain is that Ezekiel date stamps the events from the beginning of the Exile from that of King Jehoiakim in 617 BCE as stated in Ezek.1: 2 which leaves the matter of calendation subject to opinion.

---

Comparison of 2 Kings 24:12 with the Babylonian interpolation at Jeremiah 52:28 confirms that the author of 2 Kings uses Nisan/non-accession dating for Babylonian kings rather than Tishri/non-accession dating. The book of Jeremiah uses the same dating as in 2 Kings (e.g. compare 2 Kings 25:1 and Jeremiah 39:1), and Jeremiah 36:1 & 9 confirms that the author uses Tishri/non-accession dating for Judah rather than Nisan/accession dating (or the other systems already ruled out).

--

Nonsense, that is simply opinion for such could well be two different historical events.

---

Hence the only possible placement of the siege on Jerusalem resulting in its destruction is from early 589 BCE until mid 587 BCE (the duration also being unaffected if the events are moved backwards 20 years according to the Watch Tower Society's errant Neo-Babylonain chronology), giving a length of approximately 30 months.

--

False, only 18 months of the siege's duration are stated in 2 KI. 25: 1,2.as accepted by mainstream scholarship. Your period of 30 months is impossible!!

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

🤦‍♂️ and still wrong

---

Says you if your opinion counts for anything.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

That took you a while. 😆 A few later copies have this difference (likely a result of trying to make the text fit without recognising the use of Tishri dating for Judah), most notably in translations such as the Syriac Peshitta (4th century CE). It isn’t representative of the original text or the majority of manuscripts

--

Not really for COJ addressed this issue and so have the WT scholars previously in 1971. Further, a similar textual issue occurs in Ezek.26:1 for some manuscripts read '12 th' rather than the '11th year' raising a chronological problem.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

😂 wow! So… January 609 until mid 607 is… 18 months! 😂 might want to check your math there, ‘scholar’. Maybe 608 is being shunned. 😛

---

Corrected to January 608 BCE. Calendrical issues can be very tricky for all scholars and I thank you for pointing out my error. If 609 BCE is used then it would be Dec 26. of that year or early January of the following year

I have now fine-tuned my cognitive dissonance.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

And no, there is no reason to conclude that it took someone 18 months to reach Ezekiel with the news of Jerusalem's destruction, by which time he would already have heard from people who were exiled to Babylon in 587 BCE. And the Watch Tower Society agrees that Ezekiel found out about 6 (not 18) months after Jerusalem's destruction anyway (The Watchtower, 1 August 2007, page 8):

--

False nitpicker! The simple fact is some manuscripts read '11 th year' rather than the '12 th year'so we have a period of either six months or 18 months however if we count the 12 th year from the Jewish New Year, Tishri 1 607 BCE six months after the destruction of Jerusalem then the two date stamp's are synchronized. Refer to Ezekiel 20-48, Leslie C. Allen, WBC, Vol.29, 1990, Worde Books, p.152.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

It truly is laughable that you imagine that referring to the date of an event is a 'date stamp' that necessarily establishes the date of writing. Surely you can't really be that stupid. Although, given that your related 'explanation' is that the book must be magical, you probably are. Neither Ezekiel nor Daniel are magical books, but it is indeed true that statements in Ezekiel help confirm the length of the siege on Jerusalem prior to its destruction (though the verses in Ezekiel are not required to properly calculate the duration when the dating systems are correctly understood).

-----

Nothing to laugh about as i did not write these two prophetic books. The simple fact is that both writings set in the sixth century BC contain numerous date stamps as in the case of Daniel and Exilic time stamps in Ezekiel which enables not only ancient readers but modern-day readers to know not only the time period of these writings but the date of their composition. Today, people are familiar with a digital camera that once purchased, the current date and time are set into the camera and the henceforth future date and time is logged thus such information can be suitable as evidence in a trial or hearing. Similarly, daily newspapers have the time of composition of that paper as part of the masthead. I am seeking from the Editor of the Jerusalem Post as to whether there are any newspapers or bulletins from Babylon in the NB Period written by any reporters concerning the visions of Ezekiel and Daniel and I will forward such documentation to you upon its receipt.

Your comment that Ezekiel helps confirm the length of Jerusalem's siege is interesting as it is based on exilic date stamps which you are happy to accept but you choose to ignore the relevance of the date stamps in Daniel. Please explain!

----

It truly is laughable that you imagine that referring to the date of an event is a 'date stamp' that necessarily establishes the date of writing. Surely you can't really be that stupid. Although, given that your related 'explanation' is that the book must be magical, you probably are. Neither Ezekiel nor Daniel are magical books, but it is indeed true that statements in Ezekiel help confirm the length of the siege on Jerusalem prior to its destruction (though the verses in Ezekiel are not required to properly calculate the duration when the dating systems are correctly understood).

---

Yes, you were not talking about the date of Ezekiel's composition but you are quite wrong in saying that the length of the siege is 30 months. The siege of Jerusalem of 18 months is properly described in 2 Ki. 25:1,2. The siege began on the 10th day of the 10th month of the 11th year of King Zedekiah which corresponds to 10th Tebeth (early January) 609 BCE until the 9th day of the 4th month of the 11th year of King Zedekiah which corresponds to the 9th Tammuz (end of July) 607 BCE which represents a duration of 18 months accepted by mainstream scholarship.

The length of the siege was witnessed and experienced by the prophet Jeremiah, the author of 2 Kings whereas the prophet Ezekiel only heard about it late thirdhand.

The beginning of the siege as stated in 2 Ki.25:1 is confirmed by Ezekiel in Ezek.24:1 and the end of the siege in 2 Ki. 25:2 is later confirmed by a later report received by Ezekiel in Ezek.33:21 wqhich gives support to the siege's duration of 18 months.

Regarding the foregoing it can be properly reckoned that Daniel was writen in Babylon c.536 BCE covering the period c.618 BCE - 536 BCE and Ezekiel again was written in Babylon in 591 BCE covering the period c. 613 BCE - 591 BCE.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

Apparently he has still missed the point. 🙄🤦‍♂️

---

Apparently your point is rather pointless!

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

No nitpicker, I find it rather odd that you dismiss quite readily the nine-date stamps in Daniel as of no significance in establishing not just it's setting but its date of composition and the fact that it is a book of prophecy. Whereas when it comes to a matter of chronology and history in establishing the time and length of the siege of Jerusalem you appeal to Ezekiel who similar to Daniel was a prophet and his book as like Daniel is a prophecy.

Further, Ezekiel only has one regnal date stamp and eleven time stamps, two of which you quote in support of your argument namely Ezek. 24:1; 33:21 so your position is rather false and inconsistent. What then is your date of composition of Ezekiel ? Do you regard this book as prophetic?

scholar JW