Posts by scholar

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

For most practical purposes this isn’t so important. But when dealing with dishonest people like ‘scholar’ who will try to convince other readers that the actual year for the destruction of Jerusalem is imprecise, the fact that the Bible identifies a specific year is significant. Decision table analysis rules out 586. However, various sources still say 586 due to a) misunderstanding the relevant dating systems or b) repeating the traditional dating without making any analysis at all. Additionally, some sources simply use the notation ‘587/586’ because Nisan-based dating spans part of both years, even though the relevant events occurred in 587.

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It is a bit like this Jeffro that when a JW critic is critical and very dogmatic that 607 BCE is incorrect then a WT apologist can legitimately as the question if 607 BCE is incorrect for the fall then what date is correct? Now if the response does not give a definitive date then how does a reasonable person conclude that the date 607 BCE is wrong.. So, the onus is on you and fellow critics to come up with a definitive date as either 588, 587 or 586 BCE. Now if that can not be done then there remains a problem with the METHODOLOGY. So get your side right before being critical of another position.

You are simply relying on the Decision Tables analysis proposed by Rodger Young and in that very same article, he raises the issue of METHODOLOGY and his analysis is merely a fabrication and it stinks.

Now you say that scholars who prefer 586 have some sort of misunderstanding about the dating system but such scholars would argue that it is the proponents of 586 that have got it wrong. Further, there are scholars who sit on the fence by arguing for 586/587 but this is still imprecise whereas the 'celebrated' WT scholars have long held to the precise date of 607 BCE based on a simple METHODOLOGY and Biblical Interpretation.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Disillusioned JW

It looks like the first siege on Jerusalem might have been in 597 BCE instead of 605 BCE, though the battle at Carchemish was in 605 BCE. See https://www.britannica.com/biography/Nebuchadnezzar-II . That article does also say the following, however. "On expeditions in Syria and Palestine from June to December of 604, Nebuchadnezzar received the submission of local states, including Judah, and captured the city of Ashkelon." But note though that https://www.rationalchristianity.net/jeremiah.html says the following.

"605 First attack of Nebuchadnezzar on Jerusalem (2 Ki 24:1-2)

597 Reign of Jehoiachin (3 months) (2 Ki 24:8-17, 25:27-30, 2 Chr 36:9-10)

597 Second attack of Nebuchadnezzar on Jerusalem (2 Ki 24:8-17)

597-586 Reign of Zedekiah (2 Ki 24:17-25:7, 2 Chr 36:10-20)

586 Third attack on Jerusalem; Jerusalem destroyed (2 Ki 25:1-21)"

2 Kings 24:1-2 (1984 NWT) says Jehoiakim became the "servant" of "Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon", but that after three years Jehoiakim rebelled and that as a result "Jehovah began to send against" Jehoiakim "marauder bands of Chaldeans" and others, and "against Judah to destroy it".

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There is no evidence that Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in 605 BCE or at that time so remember that accurate chronology is based on accurate history so if the history is sloppy then the chronology is also sloppy. I recommend that you read the published research by WT scholars so as to get a better understanding of Neb's reign and that of the kings for that period.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

t’s good that you’re researching but it sounds like your opinion is very easily swayed. In general, I would not be so hasty to prefer what is stated in Christian commentaries about the period (because they tend to cling to traditions, such as the outdated and incorrect belief that Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 rather than 587 BCE), though they shouldn’t be dismissed entirely.

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Perhaps you learn from DJW's example and read and consult more widely taking notice of what is published in the scholarly literature and Bible commentaries instead of relying on your own mixed-up opinions. You will thus be informed that scholars since the time of Edwin Thiele advocate 586 rather than 587 BCE.

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Consistent with what is stated in Daniel, 2 Kings and Jeremiah, BM 21946 confirms that Nebuchadnezzar led a campaign through the Hatti region (including Judea) in his accession year and comparison with the Bible suggests that whilst Nebuchadnezzar may have intended to besiege Jerusalem then, Jehoiakim averted the siege by paying tribute. However, the Babylonian chronicle indicates that this was in January-February of 604 rather than on his return from Egypt in the summer of 605 (when he was going home to claim the throne). Jehoiakim’s capitulation begins the 3 full years of him paying tribute to Nebuchadnezzar, but he refused to pay after Egypt defeated Babylon in a battle in 601. Various marauders were subsequently sent against Jerusalem while Nebuchadnezzar regrouped his army, and then besieged Jerusalem in 597 BCE.

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My issue herein is that based on Daniel. 2 Kings, Jeremiah that your dating is in error and should be corrected or fine-tuned to 617 BCE rather than 597 BCE with the added historical correction of Jehoiakim's reign and Neb's reign in terms of Jehoiakim's vassalage to Nebuchadnezzer in his 3rd year otherwise you muck up the history and the chronology for that period. Sloppy history makes for a sloppy chronology.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Disillusioned JW

Regarding Jeremiah 29:10 and its reference to the exile being foretold to end after 70 years, it should be noted what The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary on the Bible says. It says the following. "29:10-14. This passage is probably a later insertion, coming from an editor who knew that from the battle of Carchemish in 605 (cf. 46:2) to the Persian capture of Babylon in 539 was roughly seventy years. The intention is to encourage restoration hopes."

The New Oxford New Annotated Bible (a study Bible) says the following regarding Jeremiah 11-12. "Seventy years (cf. 29.10). The period from 605 BCE until the defeat of Babylon by Cyrus the Persian in 539 BCE is sixty-six years. Seventy, however, is likely a symbolic number, representing the length of a lifetime (Ps. 90.10)."

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The difficulty of both these two sources which agree that the 70 years began in 605 BCE until 539 BCE is that it amounts to only 66 years rather than the precise period of 70 years so that proves that this common interpretation and methodology is flawed.

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Regarding the WT saying that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE (instead of in 587/586 BCE), the WT originally said it was in 606 BC. That year is only one year earlier than the 605 BCE date of the first siege upon Jerusalem (at least according to the Bible, see Daniel 1:1-2, and other sources). According to the Bible some captives, including Jehoiakim the king of Judah, were taken at that time into exile. The gentiles can thus be said to have begun trampling Jerusalem at 605 BCE, though Jerusalem was not desolated at that time (though it likely experienced some damage at that time). If the society were to adjust their 607 BCE teaching to 605 BCE and focus upon what happened in that year and if they also said that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE or 586 BCE, then they would be much more in harmony with secular scholars. Doing such would entail a minor adjustment of their 1914 date to 1916 (or so, depending in which month the siege in 605 BCE took place in), but that would be no more a problem than their existing 1914 date. They might even wish to link it with a comment of Russell having died in 1916. Perhaps they also might go back to saying that Russell spiritually ascended to heaven in 1916 and say he began ruling with Christ in 1916, and say that the timing is highly significant. Doing that would likely require an adjustment to what they say happened in 1918 in regards to their scriptural claims.

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The difficulty with your proposal is that there is simply no evidence of Nebuchadnezzar came against Jerusalem and took captives in 605 BCE for it was until 617 BCE that Neb besieged Jerusalem and took captives which included King Jehoiakim as per Dan.1:1`

It would be nonsense to adjust our teaching from 607 BCE to 605 BCE because nothing significant occurred in that year in relation to the 70 years and adjusting the date of the Fall to either 587 or 586 is stupid as there remains another shortfall of the 70 years so in either case, the maths do not stack up. So, we have from 537 BCE for the Return counting backwards 70 years of Exile comes to the fall in 607 BCE. The maths is powerful, the history is powerful and so is the theology all based on the JEWISH EXILE of 70 years.

The said scholar too is powerful!!!!!

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Disillusioned JW

Jeremiah 25:11 clearly says that "these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years" and that clearly means that the verse is saying those nations must become in servitude to Babylon for 70 years. Verses 2-9 along with verses 15-18 indicates that the kingdom of Judah was included in those called "these nations". It is not necessary that the Bible use the specific wording of "70 years of Babylonish domination or servitude" in order convey that idea, provided an expression with the meaning is clearly indicated.

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I fully agree but as this is the case then what about the Exile- the Jewish Exile which is the sole descriptor used in the OT?

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scholar, since you believe the Book of Daniel describes the experiences of an actual person named Daniel, notice what Daniel 1:11-12. There is says that Daniel (in the court king of Babylon) referred himself as a servant of his guardian and the chapter indicates that the guardian was employed by "Nebuchadnezzer the king of Babylon", thus making Daniel also a servant of the king. Daniel 2:48-49 also indicates (according to the Book of Daniel) that Daniel was an employee of the Babylonian king.

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What exactly is your point? Was Daniel confused by his status? Could he have served in both roles?

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But Jeremiah 25:12 is also relevant to helping us to see that the book of Jeremiah says the people of Judah (at least of Jerusalem) were to be exiled for 70 years in Babylon. My first clue to that was the heading of "70 years' exile in Babylon foretold" in the 1984 (bi12-E) edition of the NWT, on page 999 which includes Jeremiah 25:5 -19. In Jeremiah 25:12 the 1984 NWT has a scripture cross reference pertaining to when "seventy years have been fulfilled". The cross reference is to three verses of which one is Jeremiah 29:10. The heading for the page which has Jeremiah 29:10 says in part "Exiled 70 years.". The verse on that page says the following.

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No, Jer. 25:12 refers not to Judah but to Babylon as it introduces a new pericope or subject addressed to God's judgement on the nations as the following verses describe.In short, such a judgement against the nations only have begun when the 70 years of Judah dad expired or been fulfilled as the text clearly states.

You are correct that verse 12 is relevant in the sense that it provides a context for the events described in ch. 25 beginning with a description as to how the 70 years was fulfilled with Judah as an exiled people alone followed by the judgements against the nations from vs.12.

As you have pointed out the headings and marginal notes in the NWT clearly indicate the relationship between Jer. 25:12 and 29:10 which set out the historical and chronological signposts for the beginning and ending of the 70 years as the Jewish Exile.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

Jeremiah 25:11 directly states that "these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years" and you still claim the Bible doesn't refer to '70 years of Babylonish servitude'. Everyone can see how dishonest you are. Don't you understand people are laughing at you?

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Again you pay no attention for nowhere in the OT does the exact expression of' Babylonian servitude or domination' occur for it is only interpreted by the many texts that you cite. Just as in the case you ignore the reality of the Jewish Exile which I believe as do all other scholars is plainly understood or interpreted then one can apply the same rule to the notion of servitude.

The texts that you cite to prove servitude also prove Exile and that is why I have long argued that the seventy years was a period of Jewish Exile at and for Babylon- Servitude to Babylon -Desolation of Jerusalem and Judah from the Fall of Jerusalem in the reigns of Zedekiah and Nebuchadnezzer in 607 BCE until the Return under Cyrus in 537 BCE.

Got it?

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

Thanks for indicating to honest readers that you have either misrepresented or have not read the three 'articles' that I linked to.

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I am fully aware of your nonsense which is falsified by your ignoring the historical reality of the Exile of 70 years duration based on an interpretation of the relevant texts from the OT.

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The three 'articles' are actually just sections of the same page, comprising just a few sentence followed by lists of scriptures that directly support the statements made.

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Simply put your three articles ignore the reality of the Jewish Exile which was a calamity and to quote one leading Exilic scholar a 'catastrophe' thus such articles contain bunkum not saved by pretty coloured charts which are a distortion of the meaning of the relevant texts.

scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

Jeremiah 25:11–12: And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years. 12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chal·deʹans a desolate wasteland for all time.
Jeremiah 27:6–11: And now I have given all these lands into the hand of my servant King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon; even the wild beasts of the field I have given him to serve him. 7 All the nations will serve him and his son and his grandson until the time for his own land comes, when many nations and great kings will make him their slave.’ 8 “‘“‘If any nation or kingdom refuses to serve King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon and refuses to put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, I will punish that nation with the sword, with famine, and with pestilence,’ declares Jehovah, ‘until I have finished them off by his hand.’ 9 “‘“‘Therefore, do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your magicians, and your sorcerers, who are saying to you: “You will not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For they are prophesying lies to you, so that you will be taken far away from your land and I will disperse you and you will perish. 11 “‘“‘But the nation that brings its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serves him, I will allow to remain on its land,’ declares Jehovah, ‘to cultivate it and dwell in it.’”’”
Chronicles 36:20: He carried off captive to Babylon those who escaped the sword, and they became servants to him and his sons until the kingdom of Persia began to reign,
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Sorry, not one of these verses shows the expression '70 years of Babylonish servitude or domination' just as you have argued that there is no such expression '70 years of Exile'.Such are interpretations alone based on an interpretation of such relevant texts.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Disillusioned JW

Regarding scholar's comment to me of "This mere opinion for you notice that no firm evidence is provided for this nonsense" in reference to the what the introduction of the two study Bibles said regarding Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the two study Bibles provided some of the evidence in the commentary of the biblical verses. I did not bother type that documentation into my post. I invite those interested to read them directly in either of the two study Bibles. Furthermore, other scholarly books mention in detail how a number of verses in the "Book of Daniel" pertain to Antiochus IV Epiphanes. I encourage people to read some of those books also.
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Please provide at least ONE example or proof that any verse in Daniel is applicable to Antiochus Epiphanes IV.
scholar JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

scholar

Jeffro

Further, when the Bible writers refer to 'Exile' what then is this period and how long is it?

----When you deny the historical reality of the Exile then you end up with bunkum as contained in your three articles
--scholar JW