Jeffro
No such statement or suggestion appears anywhere in the Bible
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Jer. 25:8-11 for starters.Would you like some more?
scholar JW
scholar
JoinedPosts by scholar
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282
How Will They End 1914 Teaching?
by EmptyInside ini'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.
instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .
they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .
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scholar
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282
How Will They End 1914 Teaching?
by EmptyInside ini'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.
instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .
they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .
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282
How Will They End 1914 Teaching?
by EmptyInside ini'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.
instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .
they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .
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Jeffro
I’ve also independently added 2 and 2 to arrive at 4. It would be particularly odd to expect someone to arrive at a different answer given the same source material.
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Good. Now we have settled this matter then we can use COJ's explanation of Jer.25:11 in the previously cited reference as a basis for discussion but I am curious as to your expression 'given the same source material' which is precisely what?
scholar JW
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282
How Will They End 1914 Teaching?
by EmptyInside ini'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.
instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .
they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .
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Jeffro
The only value in ‘engaging’ with you about Jeremiah 25:11 is to show readers how laughable the JW interpretation is. I don’t need to defer to Jonsson’s work; while his work is valid, I have analysed the original sources myself and arrived at the correct interpretation independently.
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Nonsense for our interpretation is based on its immediate context and natural or plain reading of the pericope.Jer.25:1-11 which anyone can and must do. You claim to have engaged in independent research so if such truly is the case then you would have come with something original or different to what COJ and others have written. So, please set out plainly what your interpretation of this passage is and where and if it differs from others.
scholar JW
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282
How Will They End 1914 Teaching?
by EmptyInside ini'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.
instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .
they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .
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Jeffro and MeanMrMustard
If you wish to engage with me in an exegesis of Jeremiah 25:11 then I would recommend that you read the following information as to an interpretation of this verse proposed by Carl Olof Jonsson in his Gentile Times Reconsidered, Fourth Edition, 2004, pp.195-209.
The said scholar pouncing on those naughty poztates!!!
scholar JW
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282
How Will They End 1914 Teaching?
by EmptyInside ini'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.
instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .
they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .
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scholar
Jeffro
🤦♂️
scholar JW emeritus
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282
How Will They End 1914 Teaching?
by EmptyInside ini'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.
instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .
they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .
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scholar
MeanMrMustard
You just said "exactly" to my statement, and then affirmed the exact opposite. Just read v12 grammatically. The 70 years ends, and then the king of Babylon is brought to account, and then sometime after its made a desolate wasteland... on and on... That doesn't change the order.
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No I simply explain the obvious to you for vs 12 clearly describes the judgement against Babylon, its King and its territory or land which judgement could only have begun after the 70 years had ended or were fulfilled which was at the release of the Exiles two years after the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE being determined as 537 BCE. You are putting the proverbial 'cart before the horse'. You must get the timing right!!
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No, it explicitly contradicts a plain grammatical reading of the original prophecy in Jerimiah.
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Grammar whether Hebrew or English won't save you but only sound and proper exegesis will help you and that is what the said scholar relies on as a process of interpretation.
scholar JW
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282
How Will They End 1914 Teaching?
by EmptyInside ini'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.
instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .
they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .
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scholar
MeanMRMustard
Double nonsense. You're just repeating an assertion without addressing arguments.
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Nonsense is not necessary for the said scholar has no need of such nonsense but relies solely on exegesis a term that you are unfamiliar.
scholar JW
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282
How Will They End 1914 Teaching?
by EmptyInside ini'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.
instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .
they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .
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scholar
MeanMrMustard
Just read it grammatically. Just because Jerimiah was speaking to the Jews doesn't change the meaning of words.
Babylon was going to reign for a while. Judah was going to "serve" the king of Babylon, along with the other nations round about, for 70 years. It was highly encouraged that Judah accept this servitude. They didn't. So it got worse, in 587, a couple decades into the "servitude", with the final deportation and destruction of Jerusalem. The captives went off into exile to "fulfill" (Chronicles and Daniel) or complete the rest of the time.
Then as v12 says, when the 70 years ended, Babylon was punished/removed from power. But the order in v12 matters.
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Grammar won't help you. You need to read this passage contextually and with the rules of exegesis by means of observation to understand what Jeremiah is saying:
'And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years". - Jer. 25:11, NWT, 2013 .
You will notice that there are four elements in this verse:
1. Land (Judah) to be desolate
2. Land to become an object of horror
3. Nations to serve Babylon
4. Period of 70 years
All of these elements are tied together in a single verse which concludes the pericope beginning from verse 8. thus the immediate context is from vss 8-11 which beginning from vs. 1 indicates that this prophecy was received by Jeremiah in the 4th year of King Jehoiakim.
Notice that in vs.9 that Jeremiah combines Judah with the nations in terms of this future judgment throughout and concludes and identifies the period of judgement as a period of 70 years as in vs. 11.
This pericope concluding with vs. 11 shows that Judah would become desolate and serve Babylon for 70 years and that the nations also would serve Babylon for that same period of 70 years.
What can we learn from this verse?
WE learn that the 70 years was a fixed pr-determined historic period having a definite beginning and end with no fuzzy terminuses such as 539 BCE- Fall of Babylon; 605 BCE- Neb's acc yr; 609 BCE - Fall of Assyria
WE learn that the 70 years was a period of time during which the Land was desolate and thus empty of its inhabitants having been deported to Babylon as Exiles.
WE learn that this period of Exile was also a period of servitude to Babylon or a period of Babylonian domination over Judah and the surrounding nations.
WE learn that the 70 years as a composite historic period had a precise beginning and end namely the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE and the Return of the Jews in 537 BCE
WE learn that this composite period was of three elements; DESOLATION-EXILE-SERVITUDE.
scholar JW
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282
How Will They End 1914 Teaching?
by EmptyInside ini'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.
instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .
they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .
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MeanMrMustard
erimiah 25:12 makes it clear the order of events. First, the 70 years of servitude would end; then the king of Babylon would be punished.
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Exactly. Not just the King but the nation and its land became a desolate wasteland which clearly did not happen in 539 BCE with its immediate fall under Cyrus.
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JW version is Neb is punished, Cyrus takes over, releases the Jews, then they travel back, arrive back home, start to rebuild and then the 70 years ends.
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JW version of the history of the period harmonizes well with Jeremiah's prophecy as later confirmed by Daniel, Zechariah and Ezra. Thus as you say, the 70 years of Exile or Captivity to or for Babylon ended in 537 BCE with the Return under Cyrus.
scholar JW