Disilluisioned JW
Your point? Russell acknowledged and expressed his indebtedness to others including Barbour in connection with Barbour with all such contributions helped to build our scheme of wondrous Chronology- Bible Chronology.
scholar JW
scholar
JoinedPosts by scholar
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208
How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?
by psyco ini remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.
thanks..
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208
How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?
by psyco ini remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.
thanks..
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scholar
Rattigan350
Does it matter? It has always been stated that Jerusalem was destroyed 586/587 because one date can't be pointed to.
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It certainly does matter for Chronology as science seeks to establish accurate dates based on accurate information or provide a scheme of chronology that is faithful to all of the data. WT critics are dogmatic in their contention that 607 BCE is wrong so they make that claim definitive, a counterclaim to this would be that such critics provide a definitive date or solution and if this cannot be done then they should cease their dogmatism until the matter is resolved definitively.
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There are no WT scholars. It is Nelson Barbour that moved the destruction 20 years back because he thought the 70 years was from the destruction, when it was not.
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What about the 'celebrated' WT scholars? WT Chronology is based not on Barbour but Charles Russell and his associates and proved that the 70,years began with the desolation of Judah.
scholar JW
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208
How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?
by psyco ini remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.
thanks..
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scholar
Rattigan350
"So you already have a new chronology? Just need to lose 20 years somewhere I suppose"
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It is not a 'new chronology' but an old traditional chronology. The 20 years only occurs when one compares a scheme to another scheme of chronology.
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Um, It is not new chronology. That is the original chronology. It is Nelson Barbour that added the 20 years because he thought that 587 would make it a 50 year desolation. But he did not understand that the 70 years ran from when Daniel was taken (that's how Daniel knew when they would end, because he knew when they began) not when Jerusalem was destroyed.
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Whatever the case Russell corrected Barbour's scheme constructing a chronology more faithful to the Bible. The view that the 70 years began with Daniel's deportation or exile was false as Russell realized that the 70 years was a period whence the Land was to be desolate hence it could only have begun 10 years later.
scholar JW
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208
How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?
by psyco ini remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.
thanks..
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scholar
MeanMrMustard
No. The order Jerimiah lists the nations doesn't imply a conquering order. It's just an enumeration of the nations "round about" that will serve the king of Babylon.
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Jeremiah sets out a list of nations starting with Judah to experience Jehovah's judgement whether it is of a conquering order or otherwise is not made plain in the prophecy for it begins with Judah and then successively lists and describes the fate of each nation.
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If that list described a conquering order, starting in verse 17, it means you have Judah conquered before Assyria. How is this supposed to have transpired? Do the armies of Babylon pour out, passing through Asssyria, Persia, without conflict, only to arrive at the nations surrounding Judah, ignoring them as well, but allowed to pass through without resistance? What did Neb say to these nations? "Nevermind the massive army I'm moving through your lands. Just passing through. I'm really after this small state on the coast. But I might attack on my way back"?
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The prophecy is simply one of succession for some nations may have received their judgement simultaneously for the account does not provide Neb's military strategy or battle plans.
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Good lord. This is utter craziness. The list of nations is just a list of nations. Verse 29 is translated as "beginning to", not "first".
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The words 'first', 'beginning to', 'starting off' all can refer to a moment or time and priority of movement thus Jehovah's judgment against the nations began with Judah first.
scholar JW
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208
How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?
by psyco ini remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.
thanks..
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scholar
Mean MrMustard
Jeeeeezus. That's incredibly disingenuous. Strawman of all strawmen.
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Not at all for one only has to understand the meaning and significance of 'exile'.
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You most definitely know what it's connected to. The nations will serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.
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Indeed the 70 years was connected to the Judah and the nation's servitude to Babylon.
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He used Babylon to punish Judah, first as a vassal state, and then in exile. However, the time period is tied to the supremacy of Babylon by the clear grammar of Jerimiah 25.
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The clear grammar shows that both Judah and the nations served Babylon for 70 years whilst Judah was in exile to Babylon.
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Exegesis is not a process that's divorced of grammar. The first principle of proper exegesis is respecting the grammar of the verse. If you don't respect grammar, then you can make any verse mean anything.
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The said scholar knows all about exegesis and grammar!!
scholar JW
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208
How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?
by psyco ini remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.
thanks..
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scholar
Alethia
Scholar, the punishment is for israel but their punishment only makes up part of the 70 years. I feel that a lot of the trouble with JWs understanding this account is due to the misleading NWT translation. The Nations who "serve" babylon doesn't start with Jerusalem. For example, see below
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Nonsense. The simple fact of the matter is that Jer.25:11 refers to the 70 years of servitude to Judah and the nations for all are brought into servitude to Babylon. The next pericope beginning from vs.17 through to vs 26 gives a description of the nations who would receive Jehovah's judgement beginning first with Judah including Jerusalem, its cities, kings and princes.
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As you can see above NWT adds starting and first to give the reader the impression that the 70 years begins with Jerusalem. Very sneaky
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Again nonsense. Jeremiah makes it quite explicit in ch.25 that Jehovah's judgement of the nations began first with Judah and lasted for a period of 70 years. The NWT reads similarly to other translations.
scholar JW
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208
How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?
by psyco ini remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.
thanks..
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scholar
Alethia
Yes it began with the fall of Assyria. In 605 BCE (1st year of Neb) the 70 years were already underway.
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How can something be underway when it has not even begun? The first statement about the 70 years was made by Jeremiah and it is not in the past or present but in the future. Refer Jer. 1:1,11.
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Maybe you can enlighten us and tell us who "these nations" refer to in Jeremiah 25:11?
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Certainly. The nations are listed with their kings beginning with Judah right through to kin Sheshach. Refer Jer. 25:18-26
scholar JW
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208
How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?
by psyco ini remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.
thanks..
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scholar
Alethia
No where in the bible is the exile and and the 70 years connected even if its used in the same sentence. Babylon was used by Jehovah for 70 years to over thrown the surrounding nations. The fact that the exile was less than 70 years is irrelevent and does not contradict the scriptures in any way.
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What nonsense. Are you saying that the word exile ' does not occur in the Bible, particularly in the OT? And if the 70 years were not connected to an exile then what was it connected to? Jehovah used Babylon to punish Judah by means of an exile for a period of 70 years and you cannot rewrite history.
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When you understand that the 70 years is "for Babylon" and not 'for Israel' you also understand the 70 years was finished when Babylon was overthrown in 539BCE. The 70 years began when Babylon conquered Assyria in 609BCE. Makes total sense and no need for vague ideas and 20 year gaps.
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The 70 years were certainly for Babylon as they were brought into servitude to Babylon and were exiled at Babylon for 70 years. The 70 years had not ended with the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE because they were still in Babylon as an exiled people until their release from captivity-servitude-domination in 537 BCE event in Cyrus' 1st year fulfilled the 70 years.
The 70 years could not have begun in 609 BCE with the Fall of Assyria as the prophecy by Jeremiah was not given at that time but later with Neb's first year and Jehoiakim's 4th year- Jer. 25:1.
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Also, the fact that the 70 years is "for Babylon" does not mean israel was to be punished for 70 years.
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The fact is that Judah was in servitude to Babylon for a fixed period of 70 years during which they were at or in Babylon.
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As others have said it really comes down to reading the scriptures accurately in order to avoid misinterpretation.
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Absolutely. Plain reading of the text and understanding the text by means of exegesis.
scholar JW
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208
How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?
by psyco ini remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.
thanks..
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scholar
DNCall
Scholar: Your arguments are affected by faith. Faith that the Bible is God's Word and faith that the Jehovah's Witnesses are God's chosen organization. The other side relies on the abundance of records preserved from the Neo-Babylonian period. You accept and reject data and evidence so as to agree with the position taken by Jehovah's Witnesses. So long as this is the case, your scholarship will be hampered and you will not be well informed.
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Not at all. Our Bible Chronology is based on solid evidence from which I argue forthwith based on what the Bible says using all of the tools of exegesis and in consultation with the research of the academic literature and Bible Commentaries.
I have full knowledge of opposing arguments being well familiar with other leading Chronologists such as Jack Finegan and Edwin Thiele. Further, I have studied closely the research of Carl Olaf Jonsson a longtime critic of WT Chronology and the earlier critics from the fifties and sixties originating first in Australia by SDA's.
scholar JW
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208
How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?
by psyco ini remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.
thanks..
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scholar
Disillusioned JW
Regarding comments about servitude versus exile, which have been made in this topic forum, I ask where did the servitude of Jews to Babylon take place? Did it take place in Judah or did it take it place in Babylon, or did it take place in both locations, or did it take place elsewhere? I see no contradiction when people say the servitude of Jews to Babylon took place in Babylon. Likewise I see no contradiction when people say the servitude of Jews to Babylon took place in Judah. I think the servitude to Babylon took place in both locations. However, I have not done much reading about this in the Bible, and my memory of what I read about it is weak. I do know that the book of Daniel (whether historical or not) makes the claim of Daniel being in servitude to the king of Babylon while in Babylon. I also know that the King of Babylon appointed a Jew to be king in Jerusalem (before Jerusalem was destroyed) and thus that particular king in Jerusalem served the king of Babylon and thus was in servitude to Babylon. Note that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity says the following.
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There is much to unpack here and methinks you are overcomplicating the matter and thus getting mired down. Just apply the KISS principle until you understand the subject fully.
Servitude equates with Exile like two halves of the same coin in broad terms but under Neb Judah experience deportations which are identified, vassalage to Neb which can be identified and the Exile proper identified fully as the 70 years- a period of exile-serving Babylon fully leaving a vacant, desolated Land. It is just that simple identifiable key historical events which can be marked chronologically.
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Note that a deportation to Babylon and exile in Babylon for some began in 597 BCE, and note that 597 BCE to 537 BCE is 60 years, and that 60 years is half way in length between 50 years (which many non-Jws claim is the length of the exile) and 70 years (which many JWs claim was the length of the exile). also note that were multiple deportations.
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Wrong. The dates you select are of your own choosing. Our chronology shows that it was 617 BCE thus for some exiled Jews their exile was longer but the Bible only gives an exilic figure of 70 years thus the exile proper could only have begun in 607 BCE and ended 70 years later in 537 BCE.
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Regarding the claim (made in this topic thread) that "... that the Land of Judah was desolate during the Exile of 70 years ..." the above mentioned Wikipedia article says the following. "Archaeological studies have revealed that, although the city of Jerusalem was utterly destroyed, other parts of Judah continued to be inhabited during the period of the exile." Note that modern science conclusively shows that parts of Judah were inhabited during the exile.
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It is smarter and wiser to accept the Bible's account of matters as its authors were physically present, unlike the archaeologists who arrived with their spade some 2500 years after the event.
scholar JW