for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
Nope, definitely no ‘obvious second fulfilment’. But perhaps ‘scholar’ can quote specific parts and show how it is so evident.
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Just because it is not obvious to you does not mean it is not obvious to others. The 'obviousness' of a second or major fulfilment is proved by the dual lexical meanings of the Aramaic 'times' and the many specific texts in Daniel 4 that the said scholar presented to Sanchy in a previous post.
Enjoy!!
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Sanchy
looked over those texts. None of them directly mention anything about a second fulfillment.
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Are you thick?
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Nah, the question that should be asked is whether one can gather a second fulfillment from "simply reading the chapter", as you originally claimed, without manipulating the reader into arbitrarily focusing on singular verses cherry picked from your mental library of allegorical interpretations.
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Put your thinking cap on and rethink and reread.
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
Only in the addled mind of a JW apologist can a region be ‘desolate and uninhabited’ while having millions of people living there. 🤦♂️ Still waiting for Tyre to be completely destroyed and not even found too.
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That is a conundrum for you to solve but the said scholar is quite happy to see that the current circumstances of Iraq along with the current region of Tyre fulfil Bible prophecy. Praise the Lord!!
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
t really can’t be stressed enough how outlandishly wrong that statement is. Literally millions of people live in the area that was known as Chaldea.
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How so for there is no such place as the land of Chaldea in terms of modern geography but today these areas are populated but the ancient cities are now lost in the sands of time and ancient civilizations such as Babylonia and Shinar all fulfilling the ancient Bible prophecies. Gotta luv the Bible.
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
What an absolute liar! 🤦♂️ Stern directly states that parts of Judea remained inhabited.
I’ve embarrassed you enough for now. You can go away.
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Yes Stern confirms the fact that at the very least parts of Judah remained uninhabited. which nicely fits in well with Jeremiah's description of the desolate Land of Judah.
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
It really must sting apologists when they have to water down Jeremiah 51:62 to ‘really’ mean, ‘it’s still uninhabited because the millions of people who live there call it a different name’ (though Babylon province still has the same name.
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You miss the point. We are not talking about modern geography but ancient geography of an ancient world of ancient peoples, cities and territorial borders which was the context for Jeremiah's prophecy which in broad terms remains fulfilled to this day ad the ancient cities of Babylon and Ur no longer exist today.
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
Truly delusional (well, either that or blatantly dishonest). No one ever said there ‘was no exile’. You really should stop trotting out that tired misrepresentation all the time. There was no ‘70-year exile’
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Well if there was no 70 year exile then how long was your Exile?
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Entirely wrong of course. Jeremiah’s definition of Babylon’s 70 years explicitly ends with the conquest of Babylon, not an end of exile, and Jeremiah also directly states that exile was a punishment for refusing to serve Babylon during Babylon’s 70 years. But you can keep lying to yourself. See also ‘sunk cost fallacy’.
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False. Jeremiah's 70 years explicitly end with the Return of the Jews and not with the Fall of Babylon as proved by Ezra the historian in his closing words of 2 Chronicles and opening words of Ezra. The 70-year period was one of an Exile for it is during that period met all of the requirements of an Exile period namely an invasion by a foreign power-subjugation of land and populace and deportation for starters. The Exile thus served as punishment or an expression of judgment upon Judah.
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If you think a period of 6 months for a 4-month journey is fast, it does explain a lot about your gullibility.
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Gullibility is on your shoulders if you think that only a four-month journey was the only part of their Return.
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Hyperbole is a frequent element of the genre. Also, the texts were edited after their initial writing, well into the Persian period. No superstition required. But even taken at face value, the context of Jeremiah 29 is several years before Jerusalem’s destruction but after the exile had begun, so it obviously didn’t refer to 70 years starting from an unspecified future event.
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Hyperbole or figurative language is part of prophetic genre but its presence does not negate history which nicely coexists with prophecy. Jer. 29 was addressed to the Exiles in Babylon with words of comfort concerning their future release from Exile but the time of its writing is unknown but was written during the time of Zedekiah's reign.
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But that’s by no means the only part that’s still inhabited of course.
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Not so for the exact land of Chaldea or Shinar no longer exists as a territory along with its cities at that time.
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Actually it’s basic arithmetic. 🤦♂️ History finds a specific significant event in 609BCE right where it’s expected.
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You need more than arithmetic but a precise historical event which you cannot nominate but simply a fuzzy assertion about the end of the Assyrian World Power which cannoty be precisely determined.
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Notice how the apologist contradicts himself by first fallaciously claiming I said something not supported by Jonsson (as if that would matter), and then asserting that Jonsson is my mentor. 🤦♂️
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You do not have to agree with COJ on every point to have been influenced by his thesis.
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Stern's description of Judah as being unsettled is consistent with a description of the land as desolation even to the smallest degree even without an inhabitant.
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
Indeed. 😂 The Jewish exile is broadly recognised as beginning in early 597BCE when most of Jerusalem’s population were deported to Babylon, though there were other deportation in 587BCE (when the city was also destroyed) and in 582BCE. See also Ezekiel 40:1.
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At last, the scholar has achieved a breakthrough- a recognition of the fact of the Jewish Exile. which of course had its beginning with two separate deportations culminating as the Jewish/Babylonian Exile commensurate with the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE beginning the 70 years.
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I understand that you need to cling to this dogma despite the fact that it would be plainly stupid to turn attention to their return if they had by then already returned. Sad really.
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No need for dogma but a simple recognition of a historical reality as Jer. 29:10 clearly points to their future release from captivity at the official end of the 70 years marked by their reoccupation of the Land right down to the very month.
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538BCE. Though many Jews remained in Babylon.
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Nope for 538 BCE was physically impossible unless they took flight by QANTAS or Rail.
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he ‘judgement’ (a superstitious interpretation of Persia’s conquest of Babylon) of the king and city was very definitely in 539BCE. The hyperbole about the whole land of Chaldea was never fulfilled of course, and the region is still quite inhabited.
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You seem to be plagued by superstition!! How can one part of the prophecy be interpreted literally and the remainder be viewed as hyperbole? The simple fact is that the land of Chaldea or Shinar remains uninhabited even today fulfilling Bible prophecy.
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609BCE is the year in which Babylon conquered the last vestige of the Assyrian empire at Harran, definitively marking Babylon as the new world power. But JWs conveniently forget about the ‘march of the world powers’ at this juncture. 🤣 Your fallacious argument from authority and ad hominem about Jonsson is entirely irrelevant.
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That is simply opinion. If the 70 years were marked by a distinct event that can be dated such as the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE then common sense would dictate that the 70 years would have not some 'fuzzy' beginning but a distinct event in terms of history and chronology and that is why COJ struggled with this dilemma having to consider the efficacy of 605 BCE
JW's are very familiar with the march and chronology of the World Powers and more particularly the presence of the Assyrian and Egyptian presence at the ascendancy of the NB Period in respect to the Land of Judah in the 6th century. My comment of COJ is relevant because he has dealt with is subject and was your mentor or influencer.
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So ‘scholar’ chooses to continue to lie. Stern doesn’t say Judah was unoccupied at all, he said that the towns that were destroyed weren’t resettled until the Persian period. Stern adds that small settlements remained throughout Judea during the neo-Babylonian period, and he further adds that the area of Benjamin wasn’t destroyed.
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Well if the towns were not resettled then that could well mean that the cities or towns were unoccupied for one would not expect an outsider such as a modern-day archaeologist to use the same language or terms as the prophet Jeremiah. Thus his description matches or nearly approximates the words of Jeremiah much to the chagrin of Jeffro.Thus, Stern's description of Judah approximates Jeremiah's description of the desolation of the Land of Judah.
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
See how the apologist needs to get vague about referring to the exile to try to associate it with the 70 years, because the fact is that the Bible never refers to 70 years of exile. Most of the Jews were exiled (early 597BCE) about 11 years prior to Jerusalem's destruction, and Jeremiah wrote to them (594BCE) about Babylon's 70 years several years before Jerusalem was destroyed (587BCE). It would be entirely meaningless to tell those people that the exile would end 70 years after some unstated future starting point. 'scholar' can't get around that fact, so he will continue to flounder, jeer and misdirect.
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The said scholar has no need of being vague for the Exile is not only a blatant biblical fact but is a historic fact in terms of Neb's invasion of Judah and its aftermath as a conquering World Power The Exile is a perfect descriptor of the 70 years just as it is of servitude to Babylon for both terms are mutually inclusive. Jews were exiled to Babylon prior to Jerusalem's Fall and were also exiled at the time of its Fall so two deportations are subsumed as one Jewish or Babylonian Exile as treated by most historians.
There are no meaningless, vagueness or fuzzy bits associated with the Exile for its nature and chronology are clearly defined as to when it began with the Fal of Jerusalem in 607 BCE and with the Return from Exile of the Jews in 537 BCE. For example, Daniel was able to discern the near completion of the 70 years as recorded in Dan. 9:1-2.
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Complete nonsense. Jeremiah 29:10 is very clear that Babylon's 70 years would end, and then attention would be given to the Jews' return from Babylon after that. The authors of 2 Chronicles and of Daniel understood that the 'calling to account' of Babylon's king quite definitely referred to the Persian conquest of Babylon in 539BCE. No 'judgement' befell either Babylon or Cyrus in 537BCE.
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Not at all. Jer. 29:10 simply addresses the fact of their imminent release from Babylon having been exiled for 70 years thus in anticipation of their Return- release from Exile. Ezra and Daniel discuss the 70 years and understood that Jeremiah's judgement against Babylon would only occur after the 70 years had ended or been fulfilled which can only mean that the descriptors or elements of the 70 years -servitude, desolation and exile would be fulfilled and that could only occur at the Return in 537 BCE. Jeremiah described the 'judgement' in terms of the king, city and land of Chaldea and this did not happen synchronistically in 539BCE
Further, if it argued that the 70 years ended in 539 BCE with the Fall of Babylon then that would mean that the beginning was in 609 BCE wherein nothing of consequence marked that year and that is why COJ in his 'masterful deception' -GTR considered an alternative date of 605 BCE.
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Stern's article supports the fact that much of Judea was desolate during the Neo-Babylonian period. Specifically, Stern's article refers to the period from Nebuchadnezzar’s first regnal year (604BCE) until Cyrus’ first regnal year in Babylon (538BCE), which is not 70 years. But even if he had said it matched a period of 70 years exactly, it would hardly matter, because it would remain the fact that Babylon's 70 years was not a period of exile. Additionally, Stern actually says "not a single town destroyed by the Babylonians was resettled", indicating that the towns that were destroyed remained desolate until the Persian period, which is quite different to the JW claim that all the towns of Judea were uninhabited.
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Stern's article had some facts right but relied on an inaccurate Chronology so no surprises there. Stern's description of the state of the cities in unoccupied Judah matches perfectly Jeremeiah's prophecy. and agrees perfectly with our interpretation of the 70 years of desolation.
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
It is not necessary to hold any particular superstitious belief in order to assess the relevant texts, nor is it necessary to present some alternative superstitious belief in order to demonstrate that yours is unfounded. But I have provided substantial relevant information about the subject.
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Delusional nonsense. Such a person as you describe would lack not only integrity but credibility which is a good description of a fool..
scholar JW
