Posts by Parker

64

Was Sin Inevitable?

by Parker in

i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?

also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.

well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?

Parker

And the same thing would apply to with Satan. According to this article: Our Readers Ask . . . Did God Create the Devil?

How, though, could a perfect spirit creature—who had neither weaknesses from within nor wicked influences from without—become wrongly inclined? He evidently craved worship that belonged only to God and saw the possibility of bringing humans under his rule instead of that of Jehovah. By continuing to dwell on this prospect of rulership instead of dismissing it, he allowed the idea to fester until, at last, he acted upon it. The process is described in the book of James: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin.”—James 1:14, 15; 1 Timothy 3:6.

To illustrate: Imagine an accountant who sees an opportunity to manipulate records in such a way as to steal from his company for personal profit. He might quickly dismiss that wrong thought. If, instead, he dwells on this possibility, then the idea will grow in its appeal, and he is likely to carry it out. If he does, he has, in effect, made himself a thief. If he lies about his crime, he becomes a liar too. In a similar way, by cultivating wrong desires and acting on them, the angel whom God created used his free will to engage in deception and rebel against his Father, thus making himself Satan the Devil.

But I think that the Watchtower is shooting itself in its own foot with these 'imperfect humans' illustrations because why would a perfect spirit creature even 'see' or imagine a selfish and hurtful opportunity or possibility? Because even as an imperfect human, I read or watch videos about corrupt and hurtful behavior by people just about everyday in the news. And I would say that just about everything that I read or hear about, usually has never crossed my mind as an opportunity or possibility. Therefore, why should it cross the mind of an entity that was created as good and as perfect as God could have made him? However, according to Watchtower reasoning, Satan's sin was inevitable too.

64

Was Sin Inevitable?

by Parker in

i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?

also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.

well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?

Parker

Hello, everyone. I was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: Was sin inevitable? Also, I had thought about past Watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from Our Readers Ask If Adam Was Perfect, How Was It Possible for Him to Sin?

Well, then, did God create Adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation? Prior to Adam’s disobedience, Jehovah God had examined all of his earthly creation, including the first human pair, and had determined that it was “very good.” (Genesis 1:31) . . .

Additionally, I found this also from Did God Know That Adam and Eve Would Sin?

Regarding God’s creation, including the first humans on earth, the Genesis account says: “God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good.” (Genesis 1:31) Adam and Eve were perfectly made, ideally suited to their earthly environment. There was nothing deficient in their makeup. . .

Therefore, these articles show that the Jehovah's Witness belief is that Adam and Eve were created perfect. They were as good as God could have created them.

Also, interestingly, I found this from We Can Learn From the First Human Couple

Was Eve’s sin inevitable? By no means! Put yourself in her place. The serpent’s claim completely distorted what God and Adam had said. How would you feel if a stranger charged someone you love and trust with dishonesty? Eve should have reacted differently, showing disgust and indignation, even refusing to listen. After all, who was the serpent to question God’s righteousness and her husband’s word? Out of respect for the principle of headship, Eve should have sought advice before making any decision. So should we if we are ever presented with information contrary to God-given instructions. Yet, Eve trusted the Tempter’s words, desiring to be her own judge of what was good and what was bad. The more she toyed with the idea, the more it appealed to her. What an error she made by entertaining a wrong desire, instead of dismissing it from her mind or discussing matters with her family head!—1 Corinthians 11:3; James 1:14, 15.

But this paragraph makes the point that I was trying to make with this thread. Because as the article said: "How would you feel if a stranger charged someone you love and trust with dishonesty? Eve should have reacted differently, showing disgust and indignation, even refusing to listen." Exactly. Because I would think that the unanimous answer to the question that the article is asking its imperfect audience would be "Yes!" Therefore, how could the article go on to say that "Eve should have reacted differently"???? And yes, Eve should have reacted differently. And yes, Eve should have have sought advice before making any decision. However, with the article saying that, it is actually destroying its own logic because both Adam and Eve were as good and as perfect as God could have made them and they both should have reacted differently.

Also, according to Jehovah's Witness theology, the answer to my question of: "Was sin inevitable?" is yes because according to the Eden story, nothing could have been done differently. The results of a perfect human couple who were influenced by a serpent which was was being manipulated by a spirit entity would have always played out the same, even if God would have destroyed Adam and Eve and created a new human couple while allowing this spirit entity to try again.

But please feel free to comment, but ONLY in the context of JW theology. Because I realize that Christians who are not Jehovah's Witnesses have their own twist to this where God had foreknowledge of what was going to happen and allowed it to proceed anyway for his own glory. But I do not want to get into that in this thread. And that could be a topic for another thread at another time.

95

Jesus Believed In Adam and Eve

by Parker in

i'm new to the forum.

i'm an ex-jw who actually faded from jws.

i'm here to drop by every once in a while to ask a question or two.

Parker

GodBeliever here is a site that is made up of Ex JW's or at least started by them and has morphed into an on line belief forum with beliefs that they feel need to be articulated. Since your in the articulated beliefs business I am sure you will find a hearty welcome.
https://beroeans.study/what-we-believe/
Unfortunately 'true believers' tend to have a very low IQ.

Giordano, I'm not sure if you were referring to 'true belivers' in general, but from what I know about the people at the Beroeans website, they are very intelligent and very studious. Therefore, I think that GodBeliever may find a lot of conflict at that site. However, they seem to be against current Watchtower teachings, so maybe GodBeliever might find some interests at that site.

95

Jesus Believed In Adam and Eve

by Parker in

i'm new to the forum.

i'm an ex-jw who actually faded from jws.

i'm here to drop by every once in a while to ask a question or two.

Parker

Parker,
I would say that is very unlikely for a Bible Student to read Rutherford.
As for everything else, I hope everyone will figure out what is worth believing or not.

GodBeliever, on internet forums what you're saying may apply, but I have been finding out more and more that if you verbally disagree with a Fundamentalist Christian offline and express your own beliefs or point of view, like the Jehovah's Witnesses organization, you will be socially ostracized and cut off. And I didn't really know that until recently.

95

Jesus Believed In Adam and Eve

by Parker in

i'm new to the forum.

i'm an ex-jw who actually faded from jws.

i'm here to drop by every once in a while to ask a question or two.

Parker

Slimboyfat,
I think you can say genocide was the ancient norm. It was about making desirable lebensraum for the winners in the evolutionary struggle. Christianity came along and promoted unseen ethics.

JoenB75, if I may butt in, could you explain to me why God would conform to ancient human norms and then change his norms and ethics when Christianity came along?

95

Jesus Believed In Adam and Eve

by Parker in

i'm new to the forum.

i'm an ex-jw who actually faded from jws.

i'm here to drop by every once in a while to ask a question or two.

Parker

Parker,
I dont know what progressive Christian means. I just recognise a lot in the Bible is not literal. Just look at the old testament prophets. Also the Bible reader should try to understand time and culture of the stuff written. Audience relevance.

Here, JoeB75:

Progressive Christianity is a "post-liberal movement" within Christianity "that seeks to reform the faith via the insights of post-modernism and a reclaiming of the truth beyond the verifiable historicity and factuality of the passages in the Bible by affirming the truths within the stories that may not have actually happened."[1] Progressive Christianity represents a post-modern theological approach, and is not necessarily synonymous with progressive politics.[1] It developed out of the Liberal Christianity of the modern era, which was rooted in enlightenment thinking.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Christianity

But after reading that, I stand corrected. You seem like you are Liberal Christian:

Liberal Christianity, also known as liberal theology, is a movement that seeks to interpret and reform Christian teaching by taking into consideration modern knowledge, science and ethics. It also emphasizes the authority of individual reason and experience. Liberal Christians view their theology as an alternative to both atheistic rationalism and to traditional theologies based on external authority (such as the Bible or sacred tradition).[1][2][3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Christianity

Therefore, I would say that you are not a Fundamentalist Christian, but compared to them, your views are more liberal and would perhaps seem heretical to a Fundamentalist Christian of whom I was talking about in this thread.

95

Jesus Believed In Adam and Eve

by Parker in

i'm new to the forum.

i'm an ex-jw who actually faded from jws.

i'm here to drop by every once in a while to ask a question or two.

Parker

We tend happilly to obey humans, accept their weaknesses and injustice but when it comes to God we become very critical.

What you're saying is categorically false, GodBeliever. And I don't know where you've been for the last 3 and a half years, but with so much dislike of the current administration of the United States of America and the large nationwide protests that have been going for the last few months, pretty much shows that your head is very much in a religious la-la land.

95

Jesus Believed In Adam and Eve

by Parker in

i'm new to the forum.

i'm an ex-jw who actually faded from jws.

i'm here to drop by every once in a while to ask a question or two.

Parker

I cannot make anyone believe that the Bible is true unless they agree . It s the only book where I can get all the anwers regarding our short existence. Most other books and philosophers only rise more questions regarding the matter.

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head, GodBeliever. The Bible provides you the answers that a lot of humans are curious about. But there is such a dark side to the Bible that a lot of believers like you either don't know about or don't want to know about.

95

Jesus Believed In Adam and Eve

by Parker in

i'm new to the forum.

i'm an ex-jw who actually faded from jws.

i'm here to drop by every once in a while to ask a question or two.

Parker

GodBeliever, come on, there is no evidence that god exists is there?
The presence of the cosmos has no tangible or provable connection with the God of the BIble has it? There is nothing in the Bible which demonstrates wisdom beyond its time -- which truly would have been a demonstration of divine power -- instead the Bible is misogynistic, homophobic, racist, vengeful, threatening and slavish but promising deliverence from God's enemies. It is merely human wisdom -- all too human.
The Bible is a compilation of mainly fictional texts collected towards the end of the Roman Empire and officially declared sacred for the purpose of controlling the citizens.
There is no evidence that even one spirit being exists and thank goodness too, as this means we can all be ourselves and we need not fear the nightmare scenario of alien forces dominating our existence. Instead we enjoy free will and we should use it for our own happiness and to help others experience this freedom.
I chose to believe in God once as a young child, it was a bad choice. There was no evidence for me to believe in God and doing so led me to becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses which put a heavy clamp on my mind and education.
When the penny dropped, I realised from the Bible's description of his activities that god is entirely a human construct, it was a release from a tyranny.The ultimate exemplar of faith is found in the Bible with God's friend Abraham who was prepared to sacrifice his only son for God. This paradigm of faith is totally disgusting. The God of the Bible bathes in human blood! Who would want anything to do with such ugly inhuman notions of slavish obedience. Wake up! this was never right-- but we have moved on.
Belief in God is a resignation from being responsible moral individuals. Giving up our freewill to the partisan sect which we have chosen as the most likely to have the best doctrines. God and sin only exist in the abstract to lead the gullible away from an honest and objective evaluation of our marvellous existence on planet earth.

Thank you. Good post, Half banana.

95

Jesus Believed In Adam and Eve

by Parker in

i'm new to the forum.

i'm an ex-jw who actually faded from jws.

i'm here to drop by every once in a while to ask a question or two.

Parker

If Jesus created the universe and the planet like JW believe he would have certainly known that two homo sapiens called "Adam and Eve" was likely a story. Even if he perhaps knew this was the case, he could probably not tell the truth about the real age of human race but only speak in parables, because they would have thought he was a charlatan or spoke halftruths or even that he was a blatant liar. He would have not destroyed the Jewish religion and brought more science to the world, but would have been stoned earlier.

So, TheWonderofYou, Jesus had to lie so that the people of his time wouldn't think that he was a liar.