i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?
also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.
well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?
quote by Giordano
Park this BS some where else........ it's all about how we treat one another.....not some stupid god who doesn't give a crap.
See the last paragraph of my previous post to Carmichael. However, if you disagree with that, how about we make a deal? You park your comments somewhere else besides my threads, and I won't park my comments in any of your threads.
i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?
also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.
well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?
quote by Carmichael
The Gospel texts were composed long after the time Jesus of Nazareth was supposed to have lived and supposed to have said the things. Both Paul and the writers of the Gospels believed in Messianic literalism: i.e., that the Messiah was a literal person who would bring the return of the David monarchy.
The first text to mention the Messiah as a person is post-Biblical, namely the Targums (where the phrase malka meshiḥa is first applied) and later elaborated in the Midrash. Take your time to do it, but you will never find any Hebrew text that prophesies about "the Messiah shall do" such and such. It just doesn't occur in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Thank you for your post, Carmichael. Also, I've posted on forums where there were Jewish members, therefore, I am already familiar with what you stated. But recently, I was brushing up on the reasons why Jews don't agree with Christian messianic interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures(Old Testament), and I inadvertently came across this video. It threw me for a loop, but I must admit, the first half of the video made me think twice about this whole issue of Jewish vs Christian interpretation of messianic Hebrew scriptures:
Why Jewish People Didn’t Recognize Jesus as the Messiah | Faithlife Today Episode 148
In the end, I am NOT at all trying to push you to learn one way over another. What I am trying to get you to do is see that you are engaging in a pointless exercise. The text you are examining is 3,000 years old. If you really want to know what it means, then you are going to have to get to the source. But to do that, you are going to have to abandon Christian interpretations.
Carmichael, you and perhaps others misunderstand my intent in posting topics such as these. I have lurked at this forum for a very long time before I finally decided to register and post on it. Also, when doing internet searches on a Biblical or Jehovah's Witness topic, a lot of time my search results would bring me to this forum. Therefore, in addition to asking questions at this forum in order for me to better understand a topic and to get helpful feedback on it, I also view this forum as a 'teaching' forum. And like myself, I believe there are other people on the internet who are searching for answers about the Bible and about Jehovah's Witnesses.
i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?
also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.
well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?
quote by wanton
P.S. if the defence of your position depends of that kind of fire power, it must be on shaky grounds.
The defense of my position? I'm only going by Watchtower and Biblical concepts. Not sure what you're getting at.
i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?
also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.
well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?
quote by waton
P: This was not a question of love, but of seduction, how to detect deception sprang upon
I don't understand what you are saying... That doesn't make sense.
Compare Adam to Jesus: The first Adam was a newly fashioned, innocent, uneducated immature youngster.
Jesus: after his baptism, a spirit directed being, with at least 14 billion years of creative, moral experience with the best tutoring available.
Now those are excellent points.
i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?
also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.
well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?
quote by Carmichael
The narrative is not considered history by Jews but a lesson. Unlike Jehovah's Witnesses that place the story in history and therefore raise a plethora of questions such as you raised, the story's original intention was to teach something about the Mosaic Law necessary for humans.
Interesting point, Carmichael. But it makes you wonder why Jesus seemed to refer to the Adam and Eve story as history, along with the Apostle Paul in some of his writings and who were both Jews. Also, you bring up a good point about how the Torah is not free from legalistic meaning, but I had been wondering about the notion of the legalistic aspect of Jesus' sacrifice with the whole concept of the first man Adam and the last Adam... even though among Christians it is viewed as grace. Although, that's a topic for another discussion.
Also, Carmichael, did you leave something out at the end of your post?
i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?
also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.
well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?
quote by wanton
P: No, how about today's wt study article? Par 11, what should Eve have said to the snake? --not the wt response-- but: Just hold it a moment, let me get my husband
It was not that Eve "did not love God" as wt asserts, but
Well, I don't know if that's new light, but all of that goes against the principle of love stated in the Bible:
4 Love+ is patient+ and kind.+ Love is not jealous.+ It does not brag, does not get puffed up,+ 5 does not behave indecently,+ does not look for its own interests,+ does not become provoked.+ It does not keep account of the injury.+6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness,+ but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things,+ believes all things,+ hopes all things,+ endures all things.+1 Corinthians 13:4-7
i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?
also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.
well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?
quote by Nitty-Gritty
With Eve, it is actually LOVE that would have made her choose the right thing, not "perfection". It is love, or lack of, that would make her decide what choice she made. Obviously perfect humans were made with that flexibility; to love or not to love.
Hmmm. But why would Eve lack love for God? But it's like the Watchtower quote that I made in my original post:
Was Eve’s sin inevitable? By no means! Put yourself in her place. The serpent’s claim completely distorted what God and Adam had said. How would you feel if a stranger charged someone you love and trust with dishonesty? Eve should have reacted differently. . .
Therefore, if the Watchtower could ask this question to its imperfect audience and we all know what the answer would be, why wouldn't the answer to that question apply more so to perfect beings? And yes, Eve should have react differently, therefore, this whole story and concept is flawed.
i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?
also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.
well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?
quote by dothemath
Imagine if Adam + Eve hadn’t sinned, the whole world would be full of perfect people living in paradise. (This is what witnesses hear on a weekly basis)
what are the odds out of millions of people, that someone eventually eats the fruit? It would be inevitable. So now you’ve got perfect people alongside imperfect?
In all watchtower books talking about the original sin, they never mention any other possibilities.
Excellent point, dothemath, because there would have never been a "touchstone" for anyone to see the results of choosing moral independence from Jehovah.
Once this issue had been settled beyond any doubt, the vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty would thereby stand proved for all eternity. This would be a touchstone against which any future challenge could immediately be tested and turned back.
i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?
also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.
well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?
quote by Anders Andersen
I always wonder how an act of disobedience and the resulting disturbed relationship between individuals (Adam/Eve vs JHWH) resulted into physical defects.
Were Adam and Eve not really perfect by themselves, but merely kept alive and healthy by God while they obeyed him?
Or were they perfect and healthy all by themselves, and God purposely put defects into them after they disobeyed?
And how is sin inheritable through DNA?
What are the mechanisms for this?
So many questions, so few reasonable answers....
Those are really good questions. You should start a thread on that.
i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?
also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.
well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?
quote by Diogenesister
In fact I was reassured by older JWs as a kid that in paradise women would no longer be subject to headship and in heaven male and female no longer exist.
Hmmm. The scriptures could have fooled me.
Genesis 6:2
2 the sons of the true God*a began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful. So they began taking as wives all whom they chose.
