SB
If all the Christians are the bride of Christ, who are going to be wedding guests?
GodBeliever
JoinedPosts by GodBeliever
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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GodBeliever
Vanderhoven,
There is another noticeable difference to consider.
And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Revelation 19:8
After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:9
Great crowd has white robes, whereas the bride of Christ is wearing fine linen.
and he called to the man clothed in linen, who had the writer’s inkhorn by his side. And Jehovah said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry over all the abominations that are done in the midst thereof. Ezekiel 9:3-4
"And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth."Revelation 11:18
John is shown three classes of people here at rev. 11.
The prophets of the old, the saints who belong to the bride class and to them that fear God name.
And I don't have any reason to run, I know where I belong to.
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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GodBeliever
Vanderhoven
"Do not be afraid, little flock, because your Father has chosen to give you the kingdom"Here it says little flock not great crowd.
"The statement is trustworthy: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He will also deny us;"
2 Timothy 2:11-12"The one who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne."Revelation 3:21
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;" Revelation 7:9
Here it says about the great crowd that they are before the throne not on the throne.
As for the great crowd they will be saved in the same way but at a later date namely great tribulation.
Vanderhoven, I don't try to convince anyone. Just presenting my arguments for my belief based on the bible. If you think they are not valid it's your judgement and I respect it.
Believe me I am not following current WT rhetoric of fearing God's punishment or that I will die. I purely serve God because I love Him and I love Jesus too for what he's done for the human race. I wish there will be more people that will take advantage of that opportunity. God is love.
"We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him. By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, we also are in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. If someone says, “I love God,” and yet he hates his brother or sister, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother and sister whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God must also love his brother and sister."
1 John 4:16-18, 20-21
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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GodBeliever
Vanderhoven,
I can't give you such scriptures because, there are no such scriptures.
What I can tell is that everyone is saved and justified in in the same way trough Jesus's blood and He is the mediator for all who believe. However, salvation comes in stages and there is a ruling class that will be in heaven with Jesus which is being saved first.
"Do not be afraid, little flock, because your Father has chosen to give you the kingdom." Luke 12:32"just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, with one shepherd."John 10:15-16
"The statement is trustworthy: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He will also deny us;"
2 Timothy 2:11-12
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be."John 14:3
"Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to learn the song except the 144,000 who had been purchased from the earth. These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are celibate. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from mankind as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.Revelation 14:1, 3-4
"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."
1 Peter 2:9-10Not everyone will go to heaven to rule with Jesus but the exact number of 144000 who are the bride of Christ.
Salvation comes in stages.
First those that belongs to the heavenly Jerusalem will be sealed. One can say they are all from the house of Israel.
"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God." Romans 2:28-29
After the 144 000 are sealed the great tribulation will come and everyone of the great crowd that will be found faithful will be saved as well by Jesus.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they *cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
Revelation 7:9-10
After the first vision of the sealing of the 144000 John has another vision following the first one where he sees the great crowd crying for salvation. (I like a lot this part of the vision). This group comes later in the vision and they are not numbered, neither in line to rule with Jesus ,whereas the 144000 they are purchased from earth and they are the first fruits to God and the Lamb.
"Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."
Revelation 20:6
There is also an royal wedding mentioned in the bible in several places.
"You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your companions. All Your garments are fragrant with myrrh, aloes, and cassia; From ivory palaces stringed instruments have made You joyful. Kings’ daughters are among Your noble women; At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir. Listen, daughter, look and incline your ear: Forget your people and your father’s house; Then the King will crave your beauty. Because He is your Lord, bow down to Him. The King’s daughter is all glorious within; Her clothing is interwoven with gold. She will be brought to the King in colorful garments; The virgins, her companions who follow her, Will be brought to You.
Psalms 45:7-11, 13-14
"For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:2
"Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters, and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. Let’s rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, because the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has prepared herself.” It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he *said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding feast of the Lamb.’ ” And he *said to me, “These are the true words of God.”
Revelation 19:6-9At this marriage between the Lamb and the Church are invited many others which are not of the bride class but are companions to the queen.
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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GodBeliever
DJW, SB
Yes the 144000 are in the new convenant with God under Christ. They are the new heavenly Israel. They are credited with righteousness while in this body so they can have a relationship with Christ. However, they need to prove faithful onto death just as Christ did.
The "other sheep" the haven't been credited righteousness yet so the only way not to die in Armageddon is to run "The cities of refuge were six Levitical towns in the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah in which the perpetrators of accidental manslaughter could claim the right of asylum." However this city of refuge It's not WT, it's the heavenly Jerusalem, the organisation of Jehovah. As long as they stay there they are safe and the will become righteous and will be saved by Jesus trough his blood during the great tribulation. They need to stay there until the death of the high Priest (144000 are part of Christ body who is the high Priest) which means the last member of the 144000 makes it to heaven before the Armageddon starts.
I said to him, “My Lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
Revelation 7:14-15
They will also be saved if they finish this life faithful.
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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GodBeliever
Sorry SB for overreacting to your question. I like debates on bible, but it's good to bring our views forward and then let anyone draw conclusions for themselves on weather they are in the position to be saved or not, and then, if they are willing they can adjust their understanding accordingly.
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According to Jehovah's Witnesses, who will be saved?
by Vanderhoven7 ini know who won't be saved according to witnesses and that includes just about everyone alive at armageddon who is not a jehovah’s witness.
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others who are permanently lost include adam and eve, those who died in the flood, people of sodom and gomorrah and apostates to their one true religion..
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GodBeliever
Vanderhoven,
Yes it's pretty accurate.
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
1 Corinthians 6:9-11If you think that JWs believe in the blood of Christ and a lot of don't them don't do the above things they can be credited with righteousness. For some reason they can't see that. If you deny the value of Christ sacrifice then you cannot be saved. The original teachings of JW are supporting that only through Christ's sacrifice our sins can be washed away.
"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:17-21
"I said to him, “My Lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them." Revelation 7:14-15The revelation 7 also shows that the great crowd will be able to make it through the great tribulation and to stand before God only as a consequence of washing their robes in the blood of Christ and made righteous.
No unrighteous will make it to that point.
"And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them." Revelation 20:9
The ones that will be on earth at that point are considered saints.
"having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." Acts 24:15Here also shows that will be people who will die as righteous before the day of judgement comes.
I will add something here to your summary. The JW teachings support that the 144000 of the heavenly class are credited with righteousness in this life but I can't see how other sheep will make it through the great tribulation or have a relationship with God through Jesus without being considered righteous.As for the ones that didn't sin against the holy spirit meaning that they did not consciously rejected God after knowing him or deliberately rejected Him from the start, I can't tell they will not benefit from the resurrection in the Judgement day.
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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GodBeliever
SB
I am not playing this game of yours. And who are you anyway to say to whom these scriptures apply or not?
I know what I believe,and I tried to give you a satisfactory explanation of my belief. I believe in Jehovah and in Jesus's blood that was spilled for our sins. And I believe this is the only way to salvation.
There is no other name under the sun that anyone can be saved but Jesus's. This is God's will and everything is for his glory.
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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GodBeliever
"GB, then you should be able to sincerely answer how you are considered a righteous person since only righteous people will be admitted into God's family. I've asked you several times and you won't answer. Are you hiding something GB?"
SB
I am trying to answer everything you ask me through what the word of God provides us, but I suspect you are being biased and you will only be satisfied with the answers that you want. Every other answer that does not suits you, seems to be ignored and then you accuse me of not giving you the answers. You would make a very good politician.
"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, And whose sins have been covered. Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (as it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, that is, God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist. Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our wrongdoings, and was raised because of our justification."
Romans 4:2-7, 9-11, 16-17, 22-25
"Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brothers and sisters, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you are living in accord with the flesh, you are going to die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons and daughters of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons and daughters by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."
Romans 8:1-7, 9-15, 17
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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GodBeliever
If anyone wants to accept human ideas regarding God as a being, their worship is rejected by Him. The bible is clear only for sincere persons.
"And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory, for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I want. Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours.” Jesus replied to him, “It is written: ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’ ”Luke 4:6-8"The earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains, The world, and those who live in it." Psalms 24:1
“I will announce the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have fathered You. ‘Ask it of Me, and I will certainly give the nations as Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth as Your possession."Psalms 2:7-8
"Just as You gave Him authority over all mankind, so that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life."
John 17:2"Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Philippians 2:5-11"in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, to the extent that He has inherited a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, Today I have fathered You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him And He will be a Son to Me”? And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.” And regarding the angels He says, “He makes His angels winds, And His ministers a flame of fire.” But regarding the Son He says, “Your throne, God, is forever and ever, And the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of His kingdom. “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your companions.”
Hebrews 1:2-9
“How you have fallen from heaven, You star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who defeated the nations! “But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. ‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." Isaiah 14:12-14
Satan wanted to be like God, he realized he cannot ascend above God but he tried to ascend above Jesus who is not the same with Almighty God. He even tried to make Jesus to worship him offering him what he was given by Jehovah, dominion over the earth. He could never have dared to ask Jehovah to worship him. He knew his limitations.
The bible said that everything belongs to Jehovah and after Jesus came to earth and proved obedience until death he was raised by Jehovah and given dominion over heaven and earth. The bible also states that Jesus never wanted to be like God and himself said that his father is greater than him.Jesus is the only creation of God, made in His likeness, and He never wanted to be like God as opposed to Satan. Jesus is not a mere angel, he inherited a name higher than anyone else, because he is the Son of God. He was given dominion over the heaven and earth and it was the express wish of Jehovah that everyone to worship Jesus as a representative of Jehovah in everything.
"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."
John 5:22-23