it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
Slim,
Jesus came to glorify Jehovah name. For some reason people don't like His name.
"Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” The crowd standing there heard it and said that it was thunder. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not for mine."
John 12:28-30
"leave the way, turn aside from the path, let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel.”
Isaiah 30:11
it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
SB
If we talk about hell and the immortality of the soul we are going in another direction not supported by the bible. All these are old pagan teachings. Why do you think the Egyptians built the pyramids?
The bible teaches that humans die and then they are being resurrected. No human goes to heaven until the second coming of Jesus.
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
1 Thessalonians 4:14-18
"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man."
John 3:12-13
"This He said, and after this He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going so that I may awaken him from sleep.” The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will come out of it.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about actual sleep. and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let’s go to him.” Therefore Thomas, who was called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, “Let’s also go, so that we may die with Him!”
John 11:11-13, 15-16
"Only the one who sins shall die, "
Ezekiel 18:20
"All these died in faith. They did not receive what had been promised but saw it and greeted it from afar and acknowledged themselves to be strangers and aliens on earth,"Hebrews 11:13
"I have the same hope in God as they themselves have that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous."Acts 24:15
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him [on] the last day.”
John 6:40
The bible clearly does not teach that only the body dies and the soul goes to heaven.
You say the same about Jesus that he didn't die. Whereas the bible says he died and was resurrected by God on the third day:
"For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your holy one to rot in the grave."Acts 2:27
"For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died." 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 6
but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.Genesis 3:3-5
You went for that lie.
I believe our discussion is ending here. If you want to believe a lie it's your choice. Nice, having a discussion with you regarding the bible. Thank you.
it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
SB
If all the Christians are the bride of Christ, who are going to be wedding guests?
it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
Vanderhoven,
There is another noticeable difference to consider.
And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Revelation 19:8
After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:9
Great crowd has white robes, whereas the bride of Christ is wearing fine linen.
and he called to the man clothed in linen, who had the writer’s inkhorn by his side. And Jehovah said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry over all the abominations that are done in the midst thereof. Ezekiel 9:3-4
"And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth."Revelation 11:18
John is shown three classes of people here at rev. 11.
The prophets of the old, the saints who belong to the bride class and to them that fear God name.
And I don't have any reason to run, I know where I belong to.
it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
Vanderhoven
"Do not be afraid, little flock, because your Father has chosen to give you the kingdom"
Here it says little flock not great crowd.
"The statement is trustworthy: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He will also deny us;"
2 Timothy 2:11-12
"The one who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne."Revelation 3:21
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;" Revelation 7:9
Here it says about the great crowd that they are before the throne not on the throne.
As for the great crowd they will be saved in the same way but at a later date namely great tribulation.
Vanderhoven, I don't try to convince anyone. Just presenting my arguments for my belief based on the bible. If you think they are not valid it's your judgement and I respect it.
Believe me I am not following current WT rhetoric of fearing God's punishment or that I will die. I purely serve God because I love Him and I love Jesus too for what he's done for the human race. I wish there will be more people that will take advantage of that opportunity. God is love.
"We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him. By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, we also are in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. If someone says, “I love God,” and yet he hates his brother or sister, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother and sister whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God must also love his brother and sister."
1 John 4:16-18, 20-21
it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
Vanderhoven,
I can't give you such scriptures because, there are no such scriptures.
What I can tell is that everyone is saved and justified in in the same way trough Jesus's blood and He is the mediator for all who believe. However, salvation comes in stages and there is a ruling class that will be in heaven with Jesus which is being saved first.
"Do not be afraid, little flock, because your Father has chosen to give you the kingdom." Luke 12:32
"just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, with one shepherd."John 10:15-16
"The statement is trustworthy: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He will also deny us;"
2 Timothy 2:11-12
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be."John 14:3
"Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to learn the song except the 144,000 who had been purchased from the earth. These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are celibate. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from mankind as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.Revelation 14:1, 3-4
"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."
1 Peter 2:9-10
Not everyone will go to heaven to rule with Jesus but the exact number of 144000 who are the bride of Christ.
Salvation comes in stages.
First those that belongs to the heavenly Jerusalem will be sealed. One can say they are all from the house of Israel.
"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God." Romans 2:28-29
After the 144 000 are sealed the great tribulation will come and everyone of the great crowd that will be found faithful will be saved as well by Jesus.
"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they *cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
Revelation 7:9-10
After the first vision of the sealing of the 144000 John has another vision following the first one where he sees the great crowd crying for salvation. (I like a lot this part of the vision). This group comes later in the vision and they are not numbered, neither in line to rule with Jesus ,whereas the 144000 they are purchased from earth and they are the first fruits to God and the Lamb.
"Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."
Revelation 20:6
There is also an royal wedding mentioned in the bible in several places.
"You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your companions. All Your garments are fragrant with myrrh, aloes, and cassia; From ivory palaces stringed instruments have made You joyful. Kings’ daughters are among Your noble women; At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir. Listen, daughter, look and incline your ear: Forget your people and your father’s house; Then the King will crave your beauty. Because He is your Lord, bow down to Him. The King’s daughter is all glorious within; Her clothing is interwoven with gold. She will be brought to the King in colorful garments; The virgins, her companions who follow her, Will be brought to You.
Psalms 45:7-11, 13-14
"For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:2
"Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters, and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. Let’s rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, because the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has prepared herself.” It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he *said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding feast of the Lamb.’ ” And he *said to me, “These are the true words of God.”
Revelation 19:6-9
At this marriage between the Lamb and the Church are invited many others which are not of the bride class but are companions to the queen.
it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
DJW, SB
Yes the 144000 are in the new convenant with God under Christ. They are the new heavenly Israel. They are credited with righteousness while in this body so they can have a relationship with Christ. However, they need to prove faithful onto death just as Christ did.
The "other sheep" the haven't been credited righteousness yet so the only way not to die in Armageddon is to run "The cities of refuge were six Levitical towns in the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah in which the perpetrators of accidental manslaughter could claim the right of asylum." However this city of refuge It's not WT, it's the heavenly Jerusalem, the organisation of Jehovah. As long as they stay there they are safe and the will become righteous and will be saved by Jesus trough his blood during the great tribulation. They need to stay there until the death of the high Priest (144000 are part of Christ body who is the high Priest) which means the last member of the 144000 makes it to heaven before the Armageddon starts.
I said to him, “My Lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
Revelation 7:14-15
They will also be saved if they finish this life faithful.
it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
Sorry SB for overreacting to your question. I like debates on bible, but it's good to bring our views forward and then let anyone draw conclusions for themselves on weather they are in the position to be saved or not, and then, if they are willing they can adjust their understanding accordingly.
i know who won't be saved according to witnesses and that includes just about everyone alive at armageddon who is not a jehovah’s witness.
.
others who are permanently lost include adam and eve, those who died in the flood, people of sodom and gomorrah and apostates to their one true religion..
Vanderhoven,
Yes it's pretty accurate.
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
If you think that JWs believe in the blood of Christ and a lot of don't them don't do the above things they can be credited with righteousness. For some reason they can't see that. If you deny the value of Christ sacrifice then you cannot be saved. The original teachings of JW are supporting that only through Christ's sacrifice our sins can be washed away.
"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:17-21
"I said to him, “My Lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them." Revelation 7:14-15
The revelation 7 also shows that the great crowd will be able to make it through the great tribulation and to stand before God only as a consequence of washing their robes in the blood of Christ and made righteous.
No unrighteous will make it to that point.
"And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them." Revelation 20:9
The ones that will be on earth at that point are considered saints.
"having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." Acts 24:15
Here also shows that will be people who will die as righteous before the day of judgement comes.
I will add something here to your summary. The JW teachings support that the 144000 of the heavenly class are credited with righteousness in this life but I can't see how other sheep will make it through the great tribulation or have a relationship with God through Jesus without being considered righteous.
As for the ones that didn't sin against the holy spirit meaning that they did not consciously rejected God after knowing him or deliberately rejected Him from the start, I can't tell they will not benefit from the resurrection in the Judgement day.
it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
SB
I am not playing this game of yours. And who are you anyway to say to whom these scriptures apply or not?
I know what I believe,and I tried to give you a satisfactory explanation of my belief. I believe in Jehovah and in Jesus's blood that was spilled for our sins. And I believe this is the only way to salvation.
There is no other name under the sun that anyone can be saved but Jesus's. This is God's will and everything is for his glory.
