Also, according to scripture, Bro Smith is FIRST confronted about his immorality by the one having knowledge, then taking along another. Only then if Bro Smith won't give up the immorality does it go to a congregation level. He can either stop the immorality and get help, or he can leave the congregation. In both ways the congregation is protected.
dontfitin
JoinedPosts by dontfitin
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52
Is shunning unscriptual?
by MrTheocratic ininternational version 1 cor 5:11. but now i am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler.
do not even eat with such people.. if shunning is wrong.
.how does one explain this scripture?.
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52
Is shunning unscriptual?
by MrTheocratic ininternational version 1 cor 5:11. but now i am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler.
do not even eat with such people.. if shunning is wrong.
.how does one explain this scripture?.
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dontfitin
Reasonable Christians will reach their own decision about what level of association is appropriate based on his behavior, the same way they do about anyone else who is not a Christian.
Bro Smith leaves the congregation and then moves in with his girl friend. I would imagine a great number of Christians won't choose to support his behavior. But yet, they are still free to say, "we miss you", "I hope you are doing okay", they don't have to go to the other aisle if they see him in the grocery store. If someone happens to have special knowledge of his situation, they are free to talk more to him if they think it is beneficial. The point is, they are free to exercise their own Christian conscience and discernment in the matter.
Once the person leaves, they no longer pose a danger or bring reproach upon the congregation. So why should the congregation *as a whole* have to take any action against them?
ETA, the scriptures refer specifically to removing the wicked man from your midst. If the man is not within your midst, how does that apply?
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52
Is shunning unscriptual?
by MrTheocratic ininternational version 1 cor 5:11. but now i am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler.
do not even eat with such people.. if shunning is wrong.
.how does one explain this scripture?.
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dontfitin
1. As others have pointed out, the scripture applies to those called a brother. If someone was trying to remain in the congregation and was committing serious sin without repentance, then yes, they should be asked to leave the congregation. The behavior should not be accepted as normal within the congregation. As Jesus said, he should be treated as a man of the nations and a tax collector. That would mean "not your best friend". We all know that Jesus still spoke with tax collectors/sinners.
2. There is no scriptural basis even remotely for shunning someone who has already left the congregation. They left. They are now outside and that judgment is to be left to God.
3. Two things about the wording of "not even eating with such a man". First, if those weren't supposed to even be talked to, that wording wouldn't make much sense. Second, early Christians worshiped together at meals. Not eating with such a man would have the affect of not worshiping with him.
4. If you read the scriptures in John about not even saying a greeting, it is very specifically talking about "those who are trying to mislead you". It is referring to people who were actively trying to sabatoge their belief in Jesus' sacrifice. And again, if they were not supposed to be spoken to, then why say, "not even" eating with them?
5. The word for "not associate with" is the same word used in Thessalonians about disorderly ones. The same word, describing the same behavior. Yet, in Thessalonians it says, "but do not be treating him as an enemy, but continue to admonish him as a brother." Those two scriptures are describing the same behavior.
6. According to scripture a person should never be disciplined if they are repentant and want help to remain in the congregation. Jesus said you should forgive (in imitation of Jehovah) up to 77 times. Surely you might doubt someone's motives after 77 times? And yet, that is what Jesus is saying. If the situation is bad enough to be causing danger to the congregation after repeated incidents, then some action might be justified.
7. The reinstatement process as it currently exists is in exact opposition to the example of the Prodigal Son.
I investigated this extensively, because I really did want to be doing the right thing and I take the scriptures seriously. The way shunning is currently happening is, in most cases, absolutely unscriptural.
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17
The Law of Unintended Consequences
by Londo111 inthe governing body/watchtower unduly influences millions into extreme beliefs and behaviors.
and i suspect folks like anthony morris thinks his flock is not obedient or strict enough and there are many rules and teachings the governing body would love to enact but do not have the votes, or even they have the sense enough to know it would go too far.
however, i can’t help how by the time their edicts filter down to the rank and file jw, it causes unintended consequences.
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dontfitin
I think that the policy of treating all DFd persons the same, regardless of whether they are anti-Witness or promote other doctrine, results in an increase in the unintended consequence of more "apostasy".
Think about it: If they said you could still casually associate with those who just left the religion but keep their mouth shut, and the only ones who were seriously shunned were the ones who were speaking out against the Witnesses or against doctrine, how many people would be choosing to keep their mouths shut for the sake of maintaining their friends and family?
But as of now, it doesn't matter. Everyone DFd is lumped the same. So why not say what you want if you get DFd? Why not make youtube videos and hold protest signs?
If the WT was smart, they could be using that to their advantage, the way they use DFing now to keep people in. They could also use it to keep people who have left in line.
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I dont know how i can leave my family!
by BlackWolf inmy mom and i were talking today about how next summer i will be 18 and she said that just thinking about it might make her cry.
that made me think about how much more it would hurt her if i quit being a jw.
i really do love my parents, i know they are just being cruelly manipulated by a cult and that they really think they are doing what is best for me.
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dontfitin
Did I miss if you were baptized? My daughter 17 just a few months ago told her dad that she doesn't intend on staying a JW after she is 18. She is not baptized (thank goodness...) Dad is still a believer, I am not but still attend.
Of course it has been hard. Hardest of all for my daughter is that she loves her dad, and knows that he wonders if he was a bad father because of her not wanting to stay at the KH. But... because dad is a good man, he recognizes that she has not been happy for a long time. That is because she has been pretty honest with us about feeling left out, feeling pressured, never feeling good enough. He knows she hasn't been happy, and there is a part of him that very much wants her to be.
There have been lots of discussions, stressful but necessary. She has shared with him that he really did teach her to love God, and to try to be a good person, and that will always be with her. She just has to find her own way, and she doesn't plan on running amok to do so.
We have worked together to set parameters of what is acceptable or not in our house. Dad is not expecting her to continue going to meetings, and he is aware and prepared to take the flak for that from the elders. He does expect her to still adhere to some basic values - no drinking, no drugs, no blatant sexual activity that he has to confront. We are working it through. If she doesn't want to honor those, then after high school graduation she needs to start making some plans. She won't be kicked out, but understands that won't be best here and she will need to find her own place. Otherwise, she can stay here as long as she wants/needs to.
Just wanted to share that it doesn't always end with a kid getting kicked out. Real love sometimes wins out.
Good luck!
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18
Peer Pressure amongst witnesses
by stuckinarut2 inhave you noticed just how strong peer pressure is amongst witnesses?.
the desire to match or better one another's "spiritual accomplishments" or decisions in life?.
pioneering - because it is the "right" thing to do.. answering at meetings...perhaps multiple times - because it is the "right" thing to do.. choice of employment.
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dontfitin
This is what basically kicked my daughter out the door. She would have been happy at the hall, she is not a big "questioner". But she wasn't a big field service fan, and wants to go to college. The horror!
All she ever got was how she should be pioneering, how she was worldly to want to go to college, how she was worldly for even enjoying school, she should hate it like everyone else.. Constant. Always left out of things, in spite of not doing anything wrong - except not conforming to these "unofficial" rules.
My DH was so surprised she wants nothing to do with them anymore. It's for the best, but still... I wish those bozos could see what they are doing. Maybe that is what they want though, to have only the uber-dubs left, and everyone else gone. That's where it's going anyway.
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11
Will this faded JW be DF?
by thedepressedsoul ini have a friend who has been inactive for going over 2 years.
him and his wife split, she stayed a jw and he left and lived with a worldly girl.
he timed it so that he was officially inactive by the time him and his wife split.
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dontfitin
Sir82 is correct. My mother was DF after 6 years of no association. When I mention that, I have elders tell me, oh, that wouldn't happen now. Um, so is someone going to go back and fix that? I think not. Everyone is still supposed to treat her as DF. So would've should've doesn't make much difference does it? -
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Elder School Video
by dontfitin inhope you guys can help me find something.
there was a video circulating about three years ago showing a sample judicial meeting, which basically ended up with the other elders slamming the one guy who was trying to be somewhat merciful.
of course the person was df'd.. my husband said at the meeting they actually had a talk saying that now the elders look for any reason not to df, etc.,etc.. i am trying to find that video.
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dontfitin
Thanks so much for the help. He's not an elder, he hasn't seen it already. He's not even an MS. He always cared more about building up our family than about service time, so he never had enough hours. He is one of those "older men" who "never reached out". In reality of course, he is a gem. -
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Elder School Video
by dontfitin inhope you guys can help me find something.
there was a video circulating about three years ago showing a sample judicial meeting, which basically ended up with the other elders slamming the one guy who was trying to be somewhat merciful.
of course the person was df'd.. my husband said at the meeting they actually had a talk saying that now the elders look for any reason not to df, etc.,etc.. i am trying to find that video.
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dontfitin
Freddo, husband sees the problems but wants very badly to believe. He responds best to neutrally presented facts. I could tell him about the video, but it will mean much more if he sees it himself. -
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Elder School Video
by dontfitin inhope you guys can help me find something.
there was a video circulating about three years ago showing a sample judicial meeting, which basically ended up with the other elders slamming the one guy who was trying to be somewhat merciful.
of course the person was df'd.. my husband said at the meeting they actually had a talk saying that now the elders look for any reason not to df, etc.,etc.. i am trying to find that video.
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dontfitin
Hope you guys can help me find something. There was a video circulating about three years ago showing a sample judicial meeting, which basically ended up with the other elders slamming the one guy who was trying to be somewhat merciful. Of course the person was df'd.
My husband said at the meeting they actually had a talk saying that now the elders look for any reason NOT to df, etc.,etc.
I am trying to find that video. Any help is appreciated!