No, for when you define "propaganda" as merely being the expressing of "opinion" you ignore the definition of the word itself. Why even the need for such a word if "opinion" is the same thing?
Posts by Seeker
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24Pledge of Allegiance
by Celia inpoor jw kids all aver america :.
to: vermont school board members.
from: edie miller.
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24
Pledge of Allegiance
by Celia inpoor jw kids all aver america :.
to: vermont school board members.
from: edie miller.
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Seeker
Everyone propagates their ideas. Your post was an example of propaganda, you were presenting your view point, period. It's not a crime, the question is, what are you propagating. Are you LYING as you propagate? Propaganda in and of itself is neutral, neither good nor evil.
No, I offered an opinion in response to another opinion in response to another post, etc. That's the nature of discussion boards. Propaganda here would be only one side presented as if it were ultimate truth, dissenting voices hushed. That did not happen, and thus it was not propaganda according to the actual definition of the word that I posted.
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24
Pledge of Allegiance
by Celia inpoor jw kids all aver america :.
to: vermont school board members.
from: edie miller.
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Seeker
When I think of Chinese propaganda, I think of controling or limiting what the people can think and believe. There is no room to disagree with the government's offical policies, unless you want to be shot.
China is not quite that bad, though it is far less free than the USA, which I have already acknowledged, and I acknowledge it again. All I am saying is that mass recitation of a political message is a process that is similar in both countries. Yes, IN ADDITION, China does much more propaganda. And the voices of dissent, though present in both countries, is proscribed more severely there. But this one area, and it is the only area I have been talking about, is similar in both countries.
Here in the USA, you can pledge alligence but still disagree with government. Big difference.
No, the same happens in China. There are many who disagree with the government in China. Yes, the sanctions are worse in China by far. Here, while you may be imprisioned for peaceful protest, it usually doesn't last long. In China you can be imprisioned for years.
My kids are still being raised as JWs by their mother and have chosen not to say the pledge at school. They do this without any retaliation by the school. I cannot picture the same thing happening in China. Also, here in downtown Chicago, there are protestors chatting and yelling that the US is wrong in bombing the Afgans. Again, I can't picture the same thing happening in China.
It's only different by degrees. There are social sanctions for not reciting political messages in this country, whereas in China there are social and criminal sanctions. But again, this is getting into the USA vs China debate, and that isn't what I was talking about at all.
Let me try again: You have much more freedom in this country. OK? Got that out of the way? Good. Now, my point is that this event on Friday is using a process that is not dissimilar from one of the processes used in other countries. It is political indoctrination. Yes, you can disagree here and get away with it in many cases, but I'm not talking about the overall political freedom that exists here, I'm just talking about this one, isolated process. Nothing more, nothing less. What happens after that process is what sets our country apart, and why I'm so proud of America. But when they resort to similar propaganda techniques, I'm not proud of that tiny piece of America.
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536
LET'S MAKE A LITTLE WAGER
by You Know inperhaps you recall the instance in the bible where samson made a wager with the philistines that they couldnt guess his riddle.
as it turned out they wheedled the answer out of him by his fiancee, but the point is that they had a wager.
since the underlying assumption of the apostasy is that we are not living in the last days of this system of things, and that this world is not facing anything remotely like the biblical apocalypse, at least not any time soon, in the spirit of such antagonism, i would like to propose a similar wager.
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Seeker
The bottom line is that if it's Jehovah's time to spook Satan into collapsing his world down on us, then that's what will occur.
Backing off already? You still have 3 weeks to go.
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12
Dutch Bethel responds to NGO case
by Merlin ini wanted to share with you a response by dutch bethel on a letter sent by dutch jw re: the ngo thing.. i've not been able to keep up with all the posts on this subject here, so i might end up saying this already said, but never mind that.. thing is, dutch bethel confirmed the ngo status, justifying it by referring to romans 13:1. .
quote from the letter (translated) : <i>"jehovah's witnesses view the organisation of the united nations in the same way they view the other governments of this world ... considering the un as one of the 'superior authorities' is a help to understanding that it is possible to have certain contacts with this institution, similar to the society having contact with ministries taking care of matters related to justice, education and the like"</i> .
as for sharing the ideals of the un charter, it was said : <i>"it is not that hard to only share ideals, while we of course pay tribute to the biblical view on the way in which they should be achieved"</i> (i couldn't help noticing the shocking similarity to the society's letter to hitler in this line of reasoning...).
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Seeker
Hi Dutchy, nice to see you again.
Thanks for posting that response. I'd love to see another letter from them now, a few days later, explaining why yesterday the WTS disassociated themselves from that "superior authority," the UN.
That old light/new light flicker is getting faster than ever these days.
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24
Pledge of Allegiance
by Celia inpoor jw kids all aver america :.
to: vermont school board members.
from: edie miller.
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Seeker
I wasn't comparing the USA to China. Think about it, the two countries are miles apart politically and culturally. So how could I possibly have meant that?
What I said and what I meant is that the mass recitation of a political message is similar. When they do it, we call it propaganda. When we do it, we call it patriotism. This process (not the countries) is similar, and it is designed to achieve similar results.
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19
11 ??????????
by borgfree injust received this from a friend.
submitted without comment.
borgfree.
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Seeker
Yes, this was posted last month. As I pointed out then, it would only be amazing if such a pattern couldn't be found. That's the way our brains work with patterns. We find them everywhere, whether they mean anything or not.
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24
Pledge of Allegiance
by Celia inpoor jw kids all aver america :.
to: vermont school board members.
from: edie miller.
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Seeker
propaganda: "The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause."
That's why. It's not an even-handed, present-both-sides, dissemination of information. It's a systematic propagation of one side.
This is a valid approach to take only when there is 100% absolute certainty that you are propagating the correct side. Life is not like that in most cases. It most certainly is never like that in politics. America may be a great country, but it isn't the best country in some respects, and other countries aren't as awful as Americans tend to think.
When a person recites the Pledge of Allegiance, they are propagating the view that America, as it exists right now (as opposed to some ideal future) is:
"one nation under God" -- except if you are an atheist, or worship Allah
"indivisible" -- ROFL, no nation excapes division. Even now, Bush has a 90% approval rating. That means 10% disapprove. Furthermore, it is white against black, black against asian, rich against poor, north against south. Sure, when the chips are down, most people pull together, but even there it is "most" not all.
"with liberty and justice for all" -- many Americans would disagree with that completely. Justice is bought in this country, though sometimes the poor luck out. If you are caught Driving While Black you may find the "liberty" bit hard to swallow. If you see your civil liberties being stolen by Congress under cover of "fighting terrorism," you might wonder about the "liberty for all" bit.Now, many of you may completely disagree with what I just said ("indivisible"? Oops), but that's the point. There are points to disagree with, to discuss, to realize that politics is often shades of gray and not black-and-white. Thus the use of propaganda in this case is unjustified. The use of reason and facts would be better than a rote recitation of patriotic propaganda.
For the record, I have absolutely no problem with the first part of the Pledge, and would gladly recite it:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands."
It's the rest of it I disagree with.
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200 Years?? Those who where at the meeting...
by OhHappyDay inhow to understand the 200 years, what exactly was said and in wich context?.
anybody taped the speach?.
i am in europe, so i had no ticket, but i need this info while i'm helping my family.
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Seeker
Ozzie,
Ya got me on that one. I would have to know the context, and I wasn't there. Maybe someone who was there could respond as to the context.
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536
LET'S MAKE A LITTLE WAGER
by You Know inperhaps you recall the instance in the bible where samson made a wager with the philistines that they couldnt guess his riddle.
as it turned out they wheedled the answer out of him by his fiancee, but the point is that they had a wager.
since the underlying assumption of the apostasy is that we are not living in the last days of this system of things, and that this world is not facing anything remotely like the biblical apocalypse, at least not any time soon, in the spirit of such antagonism, i would like to propose a similar wager.
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Seeker
Good luck, Ya Know, I'm looking forward to Nov. 1st. If you are wrong I expect you to stand up like a man and admit it.
ROFL! That'll be the day! That weasly liar has slithered out of every failed prediction he has ever made. This slow-motion train wreck he claims to be watching has been met with numerous predictions that this system had only a few "weeks, if not months" to go. Each October was supposed to be filled with horrendous surprises. Y2K was going to wreck the financial world. 2001 would never be here without Armageddon happening first, and if it happened he promised to quit the JWs.
He hasn't acted like a man in any of those cases, so why should he suddenly do so now? He'll slither off again, and next September he'll have a new October surprise predicted.