Posts by Carmichael

7

How Do You Get to Have A God For A Father?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

the answer is simple, a god must impregnate your mother.. i gave this some thought, as i read the following national geographic article, having had my mind thoroughly impregnated by holy spirit in the 40 years i spent as a temple slave, serving the chief god yhwh and his side-kick jesus, who, unlike me, had been completely begotten by holy spirit.. so with interest, i read about olympias, the mother of alexander the great, who told her son (alexander) that he had been begotten by the chief god zeus, who had turned up on night in her bed and had accepted his advances,.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/magazine/2019/11-12/queen-olympias-ancient-macedonia/.

olympias is an interesting woman.

Carmichael

It is rare, but not totally unheard of, in ancient Jewish usage, that YHVH gets called "Father." One of the rare times in the Tanakh, the Hebrew Scriptures, is at Isaiah 63:16.

One of the reasons this did not occur is due to the very reason Fulltimestudent brings up. It's a heathen and pagan concept that you will note does not occur in Jewish mythos. Not until the Christians begin composing their Gospels do such stories of the Holy Spirit making the conception of the Virgin Mary possible do we see the pagan/heathen concept again, but then this is not Jewish but Christian.

In modern Jewish liturgy, God is rarely spoken of in any human terms except for the High Holy Days, which are upon us with the beginning of the month of Elul (Rosh Hashanah is one month away at this writing). A popular Jewish prayer sung during the season is "Avinu Malkeinu," which means "Our Father, Our King."

The title itself comes from Isaiah 63:16 and 33:22, playing off of two popular but contrasting sobriquets that Jews have used for their Ineffable God. God is both Father and King and God is neither, and so in the prayer, God is addressed humbly and at the same time inadequately.

The truth, of course, is that Jews neither believe God is a literal father or king. If they did, the prayer would make no sense. But this is not true of Christianity where God is literally both, especially due to Jesus Christ and the position each individual Christian claims to have with respect to God.

It should be noted that prior to the time of the Greeks, before the Davidic dynasty, it is likely that the Jews practiced various cults alongside YHVH worship that believed in myths where women slept with their gods. (Compare Genesis 6:1-4) The idea did not have to wait before the Hellenization of Judea or the invention of Christianity. It was far older. But such practice did not survive once it was wiped out when the nation of Judah adopted the worship of YHVH as the state religion. According to the theology of the time, YHVH's earthly presence was female, the Shekinah, and thus did not impregnate women as the pagan gods did.

64

Was Sin Inevitable?

by Parker in

i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?

also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.

well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?

Carmichael

The majority of scholars who weigh in on the subject, whether they are religious or not, believe that Jesus of Nazareth was a historical person. Judaism tends to agree.

I don't know anything beyond this personally, but I do know that the Gospels, from a critical Christian take, are not viewed as 100% historical. They can't be as none of them agree with one another.

There are things in the Gospels that even Christian scholars know are not historical. This is just one example.

Matthew chapter 21, the famous and most important triumphant entry into Jerusalem by Jesus, celebrated every Palm Sunday by Christians, read as follows:

When they drew near Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find an ass tethered, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them here to me. And if anyone should say anything to you, reply, ‘The master has need of them.’ Then he will send them at once.”
This happened so that what had been spoken through the prophet might be fulfilled:
“Say to daughter Zion,
‘Behold, your king comes to you,
meek and riding on an ass,
and on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’”
The disciples went and did as Jesus had ordered them. They brought the ass and the colt and laid their cloaks over them, and he sat upon them.--Matthew 21:1-7, New American Bible, official Roman Catholic Version in the USA.

The footnote to this reads, in part:

Isa 62.11; Zec. 9.9. The ass and the colt are the same animal in the prophecy, mentioned twice in different ways, the common Hebrew literary device of poetic parallelism. That Matthew takes them as two is one of the reasons why some scholars think that he was a Gentile rather than a Jewish Christian who would presumably not make that mistake...[painting] an awkward picture resulting from Matthew’s misunderstanding of the prophecy.

Note also the famous Beatitudes or Sermon on the Mount:

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.--Matthew 5:3.--NAB.

The footnote reads, in part:

Although modified by Matthew, the first, second, fourth, and ninth beatitudes have Lucan parallels. The others were added by the evangelist and are probably his own composition....Matthew added "in spirit" in order either to indicate that only the devout poor were meant or to extend the beatitude to all, of whatever social rank, who recognized their complete dependence on God. --NAB.

So while even present-day Christian recognize that the Gospel writers added traditions to their writings that did not originate with Jesus, does this mean Jesus was "just a preacher like Charles Russell" as you put it?

No. While Jesus is not recognized as the Messiah by Jews, he is recognized as a great Jewish teacher, otherwise known as a Jewish Sage.

In December of 2015, the Orthodox Rabbinic Statement on Christianity said about Jesus, in part:

We acknowledge that the emergence of Christianity in human history is neither an accident nor an error, but the willed divine outcome and gift to the nations....Rabbi Jacob Emden wrote that “Jesus brought a double goodness to the world. On the one hand he strengthened the Torah of Moses majestically… and not one of our Sages spoke out more emphatically concerning the immutability of the Torah. On the other hand he removed idols from the nations and obligated them in the seven commandments of Noah so that they would not behave like animals of the field, and instilled them firmly with moral traits…..Christians are congregations that work for the sake of heaven who are destined to endure, whose intent is for the sake of heaven and whose reward will not denied.”

Russell's work did not effect the nations as did that of Jesus' of Nazareth.

Did Jesus feed thousands with a few fish and a loaves of bread? Did he walk on water?

I don't believe in the supernatural. A lot of Jews are like me who don't believe in a God that breaks the laws of nature and supernaturally gives his sages and prophets abilities that amaze and bewilder. If there is a God, why do you need a miracle? Isn't the world we live in and the starry heavens enough proof for you?

But I am not here to judge. The Gospels may be stories like our Jewish myths that are meant to teach lessons, not report on history. Too many people might have lost the point of the Gospels and attribute to Jesus the wrong things. That would be a shame.

64

Was Sin Inevitable?

by Parker in

i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?

also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.

well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?

Carmichael

pistolpete:

Hey Carmichael,
Liked all the information you have posted on why Jews didn’t accept Jesus....Now I know why it’s very hard to mesh the Hebrew Scriptures with the Greek scriptures.

Thanks.

The theology is called "public revelation." It differs from Christianity's "divine revelation" which can be private (a personal vision seen by a single prophet, like Jesus, or even a select few, like Peter, James, and John claiming to witness the Transfiguration or the Eight Witnesses who claimed to have seen the Golden Plates of the Book of Mormon).

Public revelation is not necessarily divine, and in fact, most Jews don't believe it is. To illustrate, except for the Ultra-Orthodox, Jews don't believe the Torah was divinely inspired as Christians do. They believe it was a product of the Jewish people. It was what our ancient teachers and sages believed that "God" required of the nation of Israel in order for us to be a nation of just people, even though these ancient teachers and sages held this concept of "God" to be ineffable. Today the spectrum of modern Judaism outside of Orthodoxy holds that God is either some sort of Person, Beginning or Power, but still ineffable and not the author of the Torah or any of the Bible books.

The nation as a whole, however, received this "revelation" through its teachers and sages. Sometimes they were called Prophets. Other times they were just scribes. Nevertheless, the nation of Israel as a whole recognized the teaching as authoritative. The Orthodox have their own view of this form of revelation and see it as a supernatural event that occurred publicly before Israel. Whichever form, however, it is never hidden and requires national recognition.

"Divine revelation," basically, is Christian, and involves a supernatural event. It often occurs to a prophet or a chosen few. It can involve supernatural visions, voices, miracles, healings, etc., that are usually given approval by a hierarchal authority. Divine revelation must be accepted by masses after it has been witnessed and approved by the few.

Jesus of Nazareth received his so-called Messiah-ship via "divine revelation" and not "public revelation." Jews do not accept private, so-called divine revelations given to the few. The teaching of the Messiah is that the Messiah was to be heralded publically, not privately.

Today, modern Jews don't believe there will ever be a monarchy over Israel. The belief in the coming Messiah is seen to be a future hope in world peace, not in the coming of a personal monarch.

64

Was Sin Inevitable?

by Parker in

i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?

also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.

well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?

Carmichael

jp1692:

The definition of delusion is: a false belief that is based on an incorrect interpretation of reality (Harvard Health Publishing, Harvard Medical School).
Or, alternately from Merriam-Webster: Delusion - a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary.
It's what the word means. If you don't like it, then take it up with Harvard Medical School and Merriam-Webster.

Harvard Health Publishing and Merriam-Webster are not the same as DSM-5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders). It is the DSM that defines mental health, not the dictionary.

Until the DSM states that religious beliefs are mental health disorders and delusions (delusions are medical, by the way, not subjective as your statements are) they aren't. To use your words. "if you don't like it, then take it up with" the doctors behind the DSM.

Any scientist knows that mental health delusions are listed in DSM, not Merriam-Webster.

64

Was Sin Inevitable?

by Parker in

i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?

also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.

well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?

Carmichael

Jp,

What false beliefs do I have?

64

Was Sin Inevitable?

by Parker in

i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?

also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.

well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?

Carmichael

While I personally don’t believe in supernatural deities or that the Bible is anything more than the mythos of my people the Jews, I do want to point out the problematic fallacy that was raised jp1692--and that you hear too often from atheists who are just misinformed. Again, I am a humanist myself, but this is absolutely problematic and just not logical.

Too often when atheists argue religion they attribute their belief system to logic but the belief systems of the religious to mental health--i.e., religious people engage in religion because, as jp1692 puts it:

Religion is a delusional person’s conception….humans so stubbornly cling to convoluted, internally incoherent and inherently contradictory narratives about our alleged origins….as George Carlin so eloquently put it: “It’s all bullshit and it’s bad for you!”

But when they talk about their beliefs, too many atheists say that what they believe is aligned with science, logic, and good mental health:

...our modern scientific era have been utterly destroyed and proved false...Even a cursory study of history shows that the vast majority of human conflicts have been caused by false beliefs about god’s.

You cannot disprove religion by attributing motive or adding a label of poor mental health. The truth of the matter is you can only disprove a religious belief by disproving doctrine. There are many people who are very logical, who have very stable and open minds and have no mental health issues who are very religious and history is filled with them. We rub elbows with these stable people every day. By the same argument made by jp1692, this would make their religious beliefs true--and this isn’t right either.

I’m a Jew not because being Jewish is a religion but because I’ve been born into a Jewish lineage. I embrace Jewish custom because so many people over history have attempted to destroy it--and because it is who I am. My identity and customs come from religious practices, true, but as a humanist, I don’t believe in a personal God. The Jewish religion still can’t be bad because it shaped my society. Claiming that “it’s all bullshit and it’s bad for you” is the stuff of anti-semitism in my case.

And I would never claim that for any of my other religious neighbors, not even the Jehovah’s Witnesses I grew up to be. So if you’re going to argue against religion, do me and your fellow humanists a favor. Be logical. Argue smartly.

Being atheist, agnostic or humanist is no proof you have no mental health issues or don't belong in a mental hospital. It doesn't make you immune from becoming unreasonable either.

64

Was Sin Inevitable?

by Parker in

i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?

also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.

well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?

Carmichael

You could have at least just stepped on here to say oops or start off, but all I can imagine is you are either ranting or you ran off.

I don't have time for this.

Enjoy the people on this forum. I hope they don't, but I think they might eat you alive, so to speak. I'm leaving because you are good at insulting my integrity and sensibilities.

64

Was Sin Inevitable?

by Parker in

i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?

also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.

well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?

Carmichael

Carmichael is the name of where I live. I am not named Carmichael or Michael. Preconceived sexism is another problem you have.

64

Was Sin Inevitable?

by Parker in

i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?

also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.

well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?

Carmichael

First off, I am not a boy.

Second, you are not answering my question.

If you fail to answer my question one more time, I am going to assume you are just evading and incapable or incompetent.

64

Was Sin Inevitable?

by Parker in

i was wondering about this question and wanted to ask: was sin inevitable?

also, i had thought about past watchtower articles or publications related to this topic and did some research and found this from our readers ask if adam was perfect, how was it possible for him to sin?.

well, then, did god create adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation?

Carmichael

Parker,

No, those points are very general, shared among most Jews, not just Reconstructionists.

Also, why did you not read my post before the one where you posted the video?

If you wanted a rebuttal to your video, why didn't you just read what I had posted before? I touched on the same points, even said the same things:

Take your time to do it, but you will never find any Hebrew text that prophesies about "the Messiah shall do" such and such. It just doesn't occur in the Hebrew Scriptures.