AlainAlam

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Posts by AlainAlam

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  30

  A chance for the unrighteous?

  by AlainAlam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the witnesses teach that the "unrighteous" are brought back to life in order to learn about god during the 1000-year reign.

  i don't think that's a bible teaching, for the following reason:.

  1) no verse says that.

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  AlainAlam

  Vanderhoven7, you're asking "Who are the anointed going to rule over with a rod of iron during the 1000 year reign". I do believe the "two class" thing is biblical (Gen 12 and 22 with the seed by means of which families/nations are blessed, Exodus with the Israelites being a nation of kings and priests, Isaiah with Israel being a light unto the nations and ruling over them, and so on, down to Revelation). But nothing in the Bible indicates that among the nations who will be ruled over during the 1000y reign will be unrighteous persons who will get a chance to learn and change. Or am I missing something?
  
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  45

  What do you think of the ransom as proof of Jehovah's love?

  by AlainAlam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  consider these excerpts from the bible and the publications:.

  “no one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends” (joh 15:13).

  “for hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die.

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  AlainAlam

  Thank you Half banana! And everyone.
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  45

  What do you think of the ransom as proof of Jehovah's love?

  by AlainAlam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  consider these excerpts from the bible and the publications:.

  “no one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends” (joh 15:13).

  “for hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die.

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  AlainAlam

  Anony Mous, thanks for sharing. I'm sorry to hear about the trauma (may I call it this way?) of losing someone, and the "why" struggle. Thank you for your post. I can see you're a very genuine person. Have you found any answer after leaving JW? Sorry to go off-topic.

  And lol @ the nephew :) I hope your wife is doing OK after having lost her grandmother. Please convey my greetings and condolences to her if you find it appropriate.
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  45

  What do you think of the ransom as proof of Jehovah's love?

  by AlainAlam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  consider these excerpts from the bible and the publications:.

  “no one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends” (joh 15:13).

  “for hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die.

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  AlainAlam

  Anders, I understand what you're saying. I don't believe in the Bible, but if I did, I would argue as follows:

  There's a difference between my forgiving you and Jehovah forgiving you. They're the same word but they don't mean the same thing. When I forgive you, first of all, it implies that you made a mistake against me. And second of all, it implies that I don't bear a grudge against you because of what you did against me. When God forgives you, it has a whole different meaning. First, he holds you accountable to standards of righteousness - it's not just about you hurting him. Second, his "forgiving you" means viewing you as a righteous person, recognizing your status as blameless.
  The difference between these two is illustrated by what happened when Jesus "forgave" people's sins, the Pharisees went all crazy, "what authority does he have to forgive sins?!" Obviously they knew that anyone could forgive anyone for offenses committed against them. But Jesus was forgiving in the larger sense, and that was tantamount to blasphemy in their eyes.

  When we keep in mind this second, larger sense, we can better understand why the Bible mentions the needs for a ransom. Again, I'm not saying I believe it :)
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  45

  What do you think of the ransom as proof of Jehovah's love?

  by AlainAlam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  consider these excerpts from the bible and the publications:.

  “no one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends” (joh 15:13).

  “for hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die.

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  AlainAlam

  Incognito, thanks for your input. I appreciate the added value you brought when you mentioned his suffering served to show why he was dying.

  caves I understand, thanks for your input. I agree with the basic thought. It doesn't make sense. And sorry for the wording :)
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  45

  What do you think of the ransom as proof of Jehovah's love?

  by AlainAlam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  consider these excerpts from the bible and the publications:.

  “no one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends” (joh 15:13).

  “for hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die.

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  AlainAlam

  cofty, in order to satisfy Bible requirements, blood would have to be shed and he would have to be hung on a tree. But these are not requirements of "righteousness", if you understand what I mean. Jehovah could omitted any mention of trees, and Jesus could die painlessly, and still be resurrected and appear before his god to intercede for us. So no real need for him to suffer to offer the ransom.

  Sea Breeze, I understand your argument. You're stating Jesus should suffer all the crimes we have committed for the ransom to be valid. But:

  1) I never read this thought in the Bible.

  2) If "Let's take the common practice of abortion where an innocent baby has his body shredded into pieces. According to the Justice of God, I should have my own body treated the SAME way, since I am guilty of this crime", then Jesus should also be left to die of hunger because some people did, left to die of AIDS because some people did, and so on. That obviously was never the case.

  3) The verses still say that the great proof of love was that he "suffered" "died" for our sins. So even if your argument is correct, these verses aren't.
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  45

  What do you think of the ransom as proof of Jehovah's love?

  by AlainAlam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  consider these excerpts from the bible and the publications:.

  “no one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends” (joh 15:13).

  “for hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die.

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  3. 
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  AlainAlam

  I know he suffered, but:

  1) He didn't have to suffer for the ransom to be offered. According to the Bible, it's his sacrificial death, not suffering, that saves us. A "soul for a soul".

  2) The Bible says "there is no greater love than this, to suffer die for our friends", "we would barely suffer die for a good person, let alone for a sinner". So even if his suffering is somehow necessary for the ransom to be offered, we're being told that just his death was very costly to himself and to Jehovah.
• 
  45

  What do you think of the ransom as proof of Jehovah's love?

  by AlainAlam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  consider these excerpts from the bible and the publications:.

  “no one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends” (joh 15:13).

  “for hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  AlainAlam

  Sea Breeze, you didn't get my post. You're talking about the value of the ransom. I'm talking about its cost.

  If the Bible is true, then the ransom is very valuable. But for Jehovah to have his son sleep for a day and a half doesn't come at a great cost to him.

  If I'm dying of thirst and you give me a cup of water, then the cup is very valuable. But it doesn't cost you much. So I'll appreciate what you've done, and will love you for it; but if afterward you go around telling people "I gave Alain a cup of water; there is no greater love than this" or "one would barely give a good man a cup of water, but I gave it to a stranger/sinner", then you'd just be wrong.

  Does this make sense?
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  84

  Do you have any evidence that the GB had bad intent?

  by AlainAlam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  do you have any evidence that the gb had bad intent?

  as opposed to blind faith/cognitive dissonance and honest mistakes.. i'm inclined to think they have the best of intentions and are just wrong (primarily because the bible is wrong), but i'm willing to consider the evidence otherwise..

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  AlainAlam

  "I think what AlainA is trying to assert on this thread is that the GB men or past presidents of the WTS were just misinformed good willed and well intended people."

  No, I'm not trying to assert that. I'm wondering about it.
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  45

  What do you think of the ransom as proof of Jehovah's love?

  by AlainAlam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  consider these excerpts from the bible and the publications:.

  “no one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends” (joh 15:13).

  “for hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die.

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  3. 
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  AlainAlam

  waton, "does that mean the 2 great J's have to feel no compassion because they know within a day or two by their reckoning, they will resurrect them all?" Touché!
  

  StephaneLaLiberte Yes, the whole issue of sovereignty thing as well is lacking... Sinon t'es français? :)

  blueberryk9 "There is more to man's history than revealed in the biblical accounts! The Bible also lacks a good explanation of why we find ourselves as we are." Definitely