Posts by SharonUT

4

Coming vs. Presence

by SharonUT in

as i have studied the kjv, matthew 24:3 uses the word "coming" in the same way matthew 21:5 does.

matthew 24:3: "and as he sat upon the mount of olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, tell us, when shall these things be?

and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

SharonUT

I'm game for more comments! Please chime in people so I can get this. I don't think I understand... still.

10

considering an apostacy that was well into swing by 100ad, and worse yet by the time the nicene council was held in 325ad... how are jehovah's witnesses sure about the basically protestant canon they initially accepted which was canonized about 376ad at earlist and still even then, many christians didn't agree upon that and still don't today!

i could go into more detail if desired... but upon what basis to jw's accept this canon from an apostate generation?

how do they know that other books such as the book of enoch originally held to be scripture and quoted frequently in mark or the shepherd of hermes should not be included as inspired?

SharonUT

Okay - so moving this in a little different direction... what of "missing scripture?" There is so much proof in history and the Bible itself that the Bible is NOT complete. For instance, we know that several extant books that were once part of the Bible but which arc now excluded from the traditional Protestant canon. My concern is not as much as the apocryphal works accepted in the Catholic church as that there are several places in the Bible where scriptural books and passages are mentioned or quoted which are either lost or are no longer part of the canon. I've specifically discussed this with the JW's visiting me with no real answers.

Some examples that perhaps you could comment on individually? Jude 14-15 quotes the book of Enoch as scripture. In fact, the quotation of Enoch is the fullest, most apparent use of an older scriptural text in Jude. Enoch is quoted to prove that the sort of evil Jude is discussing "had been foreseen in the distant past" (C. Thompson 943). Thus, Enoch is regarded as having prophesied and his prophecy is utilized by Jude to prove an important point.

In Jude 9, "a vivid illustration is given from a Jewish writing, the Assumption of Moses.. . ." (C. Thompson 943). Verse 9 refers to a controversy between the archangel Michael and Satan regarding the body of Moses. This account is found in the Assumption of Moses, an ancient Jewish text, but it is not present in our modern Old Testament.

In Matthew 2:23, Matthew refers to a prophecy that Christ would be called a Nazarene. However, no such prophecy appears in the Old Testament as we now have it. Some writers have asserted that Matthew 2:23 does not pretend to contain an Old Testament quotation. This is simply blinking at reality. It is unabashed evasion to claim that Matthew was not quoting what he considered to be a scriptural source here. Matthew's intent is so plain it is undeniable: "And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, he shall be called a Nazarene." How much clearer could Matthew be?

Some fundamentalist scholars concede that Matthew is quoting scripture, and they attempt to find potential sources for the prophecy. Unfortunately, these efforts consist of erroneous linguistic analysis and/or appealing to Old Testament passages (e.g., Judges 13:5) that have nothing to do with Christ. The plain fact of the matter is that Matthew quotes a prophecy concerning Jesus that is not found in our current Old Testament.

In Luke 24:46, we read that the Savior said the following to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus: "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead" (RSV). The statement "thus it is written" is a standard New Testament formula for introducing quotes from the Old Testament. However, there is no passage in our current Old Testament which speaks specifically of the suffering of the Messiah and of His resurrection from the dead on the third day. This means that the version of the Hebrew scriptures from which Jesus was quoting contained a prophecy that the Messiah would suffer and die and then be resurrected on the third day.

In Colossians 4:16, Paul bids his Colossian readers to "likewise read the epistle from Laodicea." "According to Col. 4: 16," says Mary Milne, "Laodicea received a letter from Paul, and it was to exchange letters with the neighboring community at Colossae" ( 547). Victor Paul Furnish notes that this verse relates to the custom of sharing apostolic letters: "The instruction that this letter [Colossians] be shared with the Laodicean church and that the letter to that congregation be read also in Colossae shows how the custom of exchanging apostolic letters must have grown up--leading gradually to their collection and joint circulation... ." (1971a:864, emphasis added). The Letter to the Laodiceans is now lost.

Another missing epistle of Paul's is referred to in 1 Cofinthians 5:9, where the apostle says, "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators." James Price observes that Paul "is clearly referring here to a previous letter" (800). Elisabeth Fiorenza of Harvard University agrees:

According to 1 Cor. 5:9 Paul is not writing to Corinth for the first time. He sends what we know
as the First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians from Ephesus in part because his previous letter has
been misunderstood and in part because new problems have arisen, about which the community
had written him. (1168)

Thus, we should have three epistles from Paul to the Christians at Corinth, but we only have two.

Some of the material in 1 and 2 Kings was taken from a book that was called the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel, and the material that was used was only a selection from that book (1 Kings 15:31; 16:20; 2 Kings 10:34; 13:8).

Below is a listing of some of the other scriptural books which are mentioned in the Old Testament but which are now lost:

Book of Jasher - Joshua 10:13
Book of the Acts of Solomon - 1 Kings 11:41
Book of Nathan - 1 Chronicles 29:29
Book of Gad - 1 Chronicles 29:29
The Prophecy of Ahijah - 2 Chronicles 9:29
The Book of Iddo - 2 Chronicles 12: 15
Sayings of the Seers - 2 Chronicles 33:19

There are many places in the writings of the early church fathers where scriptural sources are cited which can no longer be identified and/or which arc no longer included in the Bible.

For example, Clement of Rome (ca. A.D. 40-100), the revered bishop of that city, in his first letter to Corinth, quotes what he himself labels a "Scripture" concerning the wretched condition of "the double-minded" (1 Clement 23: 3; Sparks 31). However, "the source of this quotation is unknown" (Sparks 31). We no longer possess the scriptural source which Clement quoted to the Corinthian saints.

2 Clement, a highly regarded homily among the ancient Christians, composed sometime between A.D. 100 and 140, quotes a scripture attributed to the Lord Himself regarding the importance of good works. The homily's author introduces the quotation with the words "the Lord said" (4:5; Sparks 62). The source of this quotation is unknown, although some believe it comes from the lost Gospel of the Egyptians (Sparks 62).

The Epistle of Barnabas quotes as scripture a passage which closely resembles two verses from 2 Esdras in the Apocrypha (12:1; Sparks 289; 2 Esdras 4:3; 5:5).

The Epistle of Barnabas itself was quoted as scripture by Clement of Alexandria (ca. A.D. 150-215), an early Christian theologian and president of the Christian academy in that city (Sparks 263). The epistle was already in circulation by the early part of the second century and was widely read in the ancient church clear into the third century. Significantly, the epistle appears in one of the oldest New Testament manuscripts, the Codex Sinaiticus.

The devout Christian apologist Justin Martyr (ca. A.D. 100-165) treated the books of Esdras as scripture and accused the Jews of having removed from one of them a passage which connected the Passover to the Savior (Roberrs and Donaldson 1:234). Justin even quoted the passage. However, the verse he quoted does not appear in any existing manuscripts of 1 and 2 Esdras.

Justin also claimed that the Jews had removed two passages from many contemporary copies of Jeremiah (Donaldson and Roberts 1:234-235). Justin supplied the verses in question. One of the passages he quoted corresponds to Jeremiah 11:19. However, the other one is not found in any existing version of Jeremiah (Donaldson and Roberts 1:235). Interestingly, this verse speaks of Yahweh visiting Israelites in the spirit world "to preach unto them His own salvation" (Roberts and Donaldson 1:235).

In an early Christian text entitled the Shepherd of Hermas, the pious Hermas is instructed by an angel to quote to a local Christian the Words of Eldad and Modat, a lost prophetic book of ancient Judaism (Fox 383; Sparks 166).

The Shepherd of Hermas itself was a greatly revered text in the early church Written between A.D. 100 and 150, it was cited with approval by Irenaeu (ca. A.D. II5-180), bishop of Lyons and an esteemed Christian apologist Clement of Alexandria regarded it "as divinely spoken and by revelation (Sundberg 1221-1222). The Shepherd of Hermas enjoyed considerable reverence and popularity in the ancient church well into the fourth century. The book, like the Epistle of Barnabas, appears in the Codex Sinaiticus.

In addition to all of the above, according to a number of church father' in the early church there were vitally important "higher teachings" that we deliberately withheld from the written scriptures and which were given on to those church members who were deemed ready and worthy to receive the (Roberts and Donaldson 4:399; MaGil147; Robinson 96-103; Evenson 71-101

Sorry so long.

4

Hebrews 9:28 & "Appear"

by SharonUT in

i am trying to understand upon what basis the jehovah's witnesses equate the word "appear" with "invisible" in hebrews 9:28. in the kjv it says, "so christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.".

looking at the dictionary:.

[middle english aperen, from old french aparoir, aper-, from latin apprre : ad-, ad- + prre, to show.

SharonUT

Larsguy - are you a JW? I'm confused here.

10

El & Yahweh

by SharonUT in

who do jehovah's witnesses say they are?

do they say they are both jehovah?

also, is the new world translation bible on-line to look at?

SharonUT

Thank you. Would you explain to me who El/Eloheim (etc...) is in scripture? Also, do JW's consider Yahweh to be the correct spelling and pronounciation of Jehovah?

22

Baptism in whose name?

by SharonUT in

if this has been answered before, just point me in the right direction.

matthew 28:19 says to be baptized in the "name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy ghost.

" what is the justification used in jehovah's witnesses changing this.

SharonUT

Thanks for all information and opinions. I've never run across anything to indicate Matthew 28:19 was altered. Shouldn't we accept the sciprture unless it is proven dubious such as 1 John 5:7? I think this is a very slippery slope. What are the exact words used in a JW baptism nowdays? Also, I do not have a NWT... so would somebody be kind enough to quote Matthew 28:19 from their NWT for me to read.

10

El & Yahweh

by SharonUT in

who do jehovah's witnesses say they are?

do they say they are both jehovah?

also, is the new world translation bible on-line to look at?

SharonUT

Oh my gosh - I just typed a bunch of stuff and it got deleted because I didn't have a field filled in right. Here I go again...

Further proof that variant readings affect important passages comes from Deuteronomy 32:8-9. In the MT, as it is translated in the KJV, the passage reads as follows:

"When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD's [Yahweh's] portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance."

However, it has long been known from the Septaugint, and more recently from the Dead Sea Scrolls, that the phrase "according to the number of the children of Israel" used to read "according to the number of the sons of God."

In the RSV, which takes into account the confirming evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls, the passage reads like this:

"When the Most High [El Elyon] gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. For the LORD's [Yahweh's] portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance."

The significance of this variation is that in ancient times the term "sons of God" frequetly referred to members of a divine assembly of gods. The ancient Hebrews believed in a divine council of deities headed by the supreme father-god El (also called Elohim or El Elyon), and they often referred to the members of this council as "the sons of God." There is considerable disagreement among scholars over the council's composition, but there is no serious question that a belief in a divine assembly of heavenly deities was an important doctrine in ancient Hebrew theology (Eissfeldt; Mullen; Hayman; Morgenstern; Hanson 39; Clifford; Ackerman; Ackroyd; Seaich 1983:9-23).

By changing "the sons of God" to "the children of Israel," someone was deliberately trying to eliminate the reference to the divine council.

The LXX and Dead Sea Scroll versions of Deut. 32:8-9 portray Yahweh as separate from El and as a member of the divine assembly subordinate to Him. As Niels Lemche says, "the Greek version apparently ranges Yahweh among the sons of the Most High, that is, treats him as a member of the pantheon of gods who are subordinate to the supreme God, El Elyon" (pg. 226).

According to Harvard University's Paul Hanson, "This verse no doubt preserves early Israel's view of her place within the family of nations. The high god "Elyon" originally apportioned the nations to the members of the divine assembly ... Israel was allotted to Yahweh."

As the RSV put in, Israel was Yahweh's "alotted inheritance," given (or "allotted") to Him by His Father, El.

The Dead Sea Scrolls and Septagint prove that in the original Hebrew of Deut. 32:8-9, Yahweh was portrayed as a member of the divine council under El. Therefore, those who subsequently tampered with the Hebrew text were probably Yahweh-only editors who wanted to erase the original distinction between El and Yahweh and to depict Yahweh as the one and only God.

22

Baptism in whose name?

by SharonUT in

if this has been answered before, just point me in the right direction.

matthew 28:19 says to be baptized in the "name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy ghost.

" what is the justification used in jehovah's witnesses changing this.

SharonUT

Yes, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost... but I don't equate that with the "trinity." Still, I was wondering the JW view on this?

4

Hebrews 9:28 & "Appear"

by SharonUT in

i am trying to understand upon what basis the jehovah's witnesses equate the word "appear" with "invisible" in hebrews 9:28. in the kjv it says, "so christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.".

looking at the dictionary:.

[middle english aperen, from old french aparoir, aper-, from latin apprre : ad-, ad- + prre, to show.

SharonUT

I am trying to understand upon what basis the Jehovah's Witnesses equate the word "appear" with "invisible" in Hebrews 9:28. In the KJV it says, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he APPEAR the second time without sin unto salvation."

Looking at the dictionary:
[Middle English aperen, from Old French aparoir, aper-, from Latin apprre : ad-, ad- + prre, TO SHOW.]

Synonyms: appear, emerge, issue, loom, 1materialize, show

These verbs mean to come into view: a ship appearing on the horizon; a star that emerged from behind a cloud; a diver issuing from the water; a peak that loomed through the mist; a job offer that materialized overnight; a shirtsleeve showing at the edge of the
jacket. Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
appear \Ap*pear"\, v. i. [imp. & p. p. Appeared; p. pr. & vb. n. Appearing.] [OE. apperen, aperen, OF. aparoir, F. apparoir, fr. L. appar?re to appear + par?reto come forth, to be visible; prob. from the same root as par?re to produce. Cf. Apparent, Parent, Peer, v. i.] 1. TO COME OR BE IN SIGHT; TO BE IN VIEW; TO BECOME VISIBLE.

1. And God . . . said, Let . . . the dry land APPEAR. --Gen. i. 9.

2. To stand in presence of some authority, tribunal, or superior person, to answer a charge, plead a cause, or the like; to present one's self as a party or advocate before a court, or as a person to be tried.

3. We must all APPEAR before the judgment seat. --[hand] Cor. v. 10.

One ruffian escaped because no prosecutor dared to appear. --Macaulay.

4. To become visible to the apprehension of the mind; to be known as a subject of observation or comprehension, or as a thing proved; to be obvious or manifest.

It doth not yet appear what we shall be. --1 John iii. 2.

Of their vain contest appeared no end. --Milton.

5. To seem; to have a certain semblance; to look.

They disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. --Matt. vi. 16.

Syn: To seem; look. See Seem.

appear v 1: give a certain impression or have a certain outward aspect; "She seems to be sleeping"; "This appears to
be a very difficult problem"; "This project looks fishy"; "They appeared like people who had not eaten or slept for a
long time" [syn: look, seem] 2: come into sight or view; "He suddenly appeared at the wedding"; "A new star
appeared on the horizon" [ant: disappear] 3: be issued or published, as of news in a paper, a book, or a movie; "Did
your latest book appear yet?" "The new Woody Allen film hasn't come out yet" [syn: come out] 4: seem to be true,
probable, or apparent; "It seems that he is very gifted"; "It appears that the weather in California is very bad" [syn:
seem] 5: come into being or existence, or appear on the scene: "Then the computer came along and changed our
lives"; "Homo sapiens appeared millions of years ago" [syn: come along] [ant: vanish] 6: appear as a character on
stage or appear in a play, etc.; "Gielgud appears briefly in this movie"; "She appeared in `Hamlet' on the London
stage" 7: present oneself formally, as before a (judicial) authority; "He had to appear in court last month"; "She
appeared on several charges of theft"

I don't get it. If they insist that it is an "invisible appearance" - then how can Revelations 1:7 be true saying that "Behold he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, AND THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM: AND ALL KINDREDS OF THE EARTH SHALL WAIL BECAUSE OF HIM...." How can we "SEE" an invisible appearance? How can those who "pierced him" "SEE" Him if they are in "soul sleep?" Thanks.

22

Baptism in whose name?

by SharonUT in

if this has been answered before, just point me in the right direction.

matthew 28:19 says to be baptized in the "name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy ghost.

" what is the justification used in jehovah's witnesses changing this.

SharonUT

If this has been answered before, just point me in the right direction.

Matthew 28:19 says to be baptized in the "name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." What is the justification used in Jehovah's Witnesses changing this. Is there scriptural reasoning? Thanks.

4

Coming vs. Presence

by SharonUT in

as i have studied the kjv, matthew 24:3 uses the word "coming" in the same way matthew 21:5 does.

matthew 24:3: "and as he sat upon the mount of olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, tell us, when shall these things be?

and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

SharonUT

As I have studied the KJV, Matthew 24:3 uses the word "coming" in the same way Matthew 21:5 does.

Matthew 24:3: "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy COMING, and of the end of the world?"

Matthew 21:5 "Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King COMETH unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass."

Both times in these scriptures - the word used here means "an official royal visit" and not "presence". Is this incorrect? Thanks.